In Conversation: Caroline Kepnes & Lindzi Scharf

In Conversation with my dear friend Caroline Kepnes

By Lindzi Scharf

You know those longtime friends who float in and out of your life — and whenever you see one another, it feels like time hasn't passed? (Even if the plot points from year to year prove otherwise.) For me, that person is Caroline Kepnes, which is why I decided to sit down with her for The Retaility's "In Conversation" series.

Caroline is the New York Times-bestselling author behind the "You" book series, which includes "You" (2014), "Hidden Bodies" (2016), "You Love Me" (2021), and "For You and You Only" (2023). The hit series also led to the Penn Badgley-fronted Netflix show, "You," which aired for five seasons from 2018 to now. Needless to say, she's been busy, and we're almost always overdue for a catch-up.

Because I've had other women in conversation with one another for The Retaility over the course of the last year, I figured it was only fair that I jump in front of the lens with a friend — before unveiling our next batch of subjects. The experience gave me a newfound appreciation for this interview series.

"It is very strange sitting down and doing this with a friend," I hear myself saying on an iPhone video to Caroline at the start of our conversation, which we filmed last year in my Los Angeles backyard.

"It's not the same as sitting down at the bar," Caroline agrees, nervously laughing. "Or at a coffee table."

In the video, we're both clad in neutral sweaters—an unplanned coincidence — with oversized sunglasses that we each repeatedly take on and off as we individually battle our nerves. It's a funny observation to make about oneself, and in truth, I only notice because I'm reviewing this conversation and moment long after it first took place. In theory, interviews and conversations should be a song and dance Caroline and I are used to. Except, once upon a time, she and I were on the other end of it. We asked other people — famous people — questions.

When Caroline and I first met in 2005, she worked for Ted Casablanca's "The Awful Truth," a gossip column for E! Entertainment. Meanwhile, I was writing for InStyle Magazine. Not to date us, but we knew one another when legacy media wasn't referred to as legacy media. It was the only media. This was before Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok took over. But in a day and age of social media, now everyone is expected to be someone. Some of us want to be more than others.

As writers at heart, neither Caroline, nor myself, have gotten used to being forward-facing — and yet everyone is now expected to be forward-facing. No matter what you do for a living. Hence the on-again/off-again sunglasses. A prop unintentionally intended to mask our individual anxieties and discomfort with perforative conversations that still manage to dig deep. (Spoiler alert—it turns out sitting down with a friend and discussing private things in a public forum is as bizarre as it is cathartic. Who knew? Other than all of my past subjects.)

But there we are in my Los Angeles backyard. Catching up. Our stories and experiences diverge from one another, but they eventually intersect when they're meant to. Like the universe and anything else.

In 2018, Caroline's career as an author hit a new level of surreal when "You" debuted on Netflix.

Meanwhile, I experienced equally surreal circumstances as my journey took a major detour with the birth of my first child, Miss Evan, who changed my life in every way. As children often do. However, in Miss Evan's case, she was born with a rare mitochondrial disease, which couldn't have been detected prenatally. As a result, my career — for the first time in my life — took a backseat as I navigated unimaginable circumstances, which included stays in and out of the hospitals during Evan's nearly four short years on earth.

During this time, Caroline prolifically wrote and published five books. Concurrently, I stretched myself in new ways as I wrote about life with Miss Evan and the many life-changing lessons she taught me during our time together — and now in the afterlife.

In some ways, Caroline is as connected as she is disconnected to my memory of that era. Caroline, and her hilarious mom, were among the women at Evan's baby shower. Caroline released another novel independent of the "You" series — called "Providence" — in 2018. Just days before I gave birth, I attended an event in Pasadena moderated by Lena Dunham in celebration of the book. The week after Evan was born, Caroline's Netflix television series debuted. I remember bingeing the series between breastfeeding and those initial sleepless nights. Before realizing that life was about to unfold in all the ways every parent fears.

Over the next four years, Caroline was deep in a writing and deadline hole; while I picked up the pieces of my life. We largely lost touch. But the universe had other plans.

Somehow, Caroline stumbled upon an essay I'd written for the L.A. Times, which is how she learned of Evan's passing. Caroline wrote, "I came across this piece today, one of the most unforgettable, permanently soul-touching things I have ever read, and I am so sorry for your loss. Miss Evan's light is shining through you and I will think of your little star every time I see sunglasses and feel the waves on my toes. My heart is full and the love in your family is profound."

It meant the world. (As every note from every friend, acquaintance, and stranger always does.) Caroline and I reconnected over lunches (as opposed to our old rendezvous at La Poubelle and Birds), and I invited her to be a part of The Retaility's "In Conversation" series, which has featured many longtime (and, sometimes, long-lost friends) like former co-stars Jaime Ray Newman with Lindsay Price, comedian Esther Povitsky with director Kay Cannon, Constance Zimmer with Katie Aselton, and Amanda Kloots with producer Hilary Shor.

I kept pushing the timing of this piece because other stories featuring other people somehow seemed more relevant than featuring myself. Caroline's story suffered as a result of me putting myself last. But revisiting this conversation over a year later feels all the more fitting. This piece is just as evergreen and relevant as the day our conversation took place — and somehow, it feels even more timely for me personally and professionally as I revisit it.

Without any thought or consideration, I recently created "Joyful Grief," a newsletter that I often describe as a "gratitude journal mixed with a healthy dose of humor and heartache from the perspective of a former medical mom on a mission to honor her late daughter's legacy while joy-seeking for her three-nage son." It explores many of the same topics and themes Caroline and I discussed last year.

Meanwhile, Caroline is celebrating the series finale of "You," a major milestone for any author whose book was turned into a hit series. (For the record: Only Caroline could make a serial killer—aka the character Joe Goldberg—lovable, desirable, relatable, and all other 'ables.')

I'd love to claim I considered and carefully coordinated the timing of this piece, which is also debuting around the anniversary of Miss Evan's passing. But the truth is — I'm a one-woman show here at The Retaility. And this is the last conversation in my arsenal before I unveil The Retaility's next batch of subjects.

In some ways, perhaps, it speaks to the odd timing of the universe and how sometimes, I guess, things unfold as they're supposed to. Or maybe it speaks to the fact that these pieces are as timely and evergreen as I intended them to be when I first launched this series.

You can read this conversation today, yesterday, tomorrow, or ten years from now, and — because it's a snapshot of a moment in time — it is just as relevant.

So, if you're curious how Caroline went from entertainment journalist at Entertainment Weekly to celebrated author or if you're open to learning more about my journey with Miss Evan, read on…

THE MEET CUTE

LINDZI: SCHARF: Let's backtrack. Let's talk about how we first met. We were both entertainment journalists. What is your memory of that time? I was trying to pinpoint when and where we met, and everything is a blur.

CAROLINE KEPNES: The thing about getting older is you look back and you're like, 'That was me?' I moved here. I didn't know anyone. I think we met at a movie premiere. Westwood always made me nervous. I remember shaking and seeing you and [feeling] like, 'That's where I'm supposed to be,' and knowing how you learn what you think of someone by your gut reaction when you see them. I was like, 'Yep. If Lindzi's there, that's the place to be.'

LS: That's nice to hear. Now that I'm thinking back, parking was very stressful [in that part of Westwood].

CK: Yeah, all of it was very stressful, and then being crowded together on those carpets [was overwhelming]. I'd only done a little bit of that in New York. I was impressed by how people got their voices out [to ask celebrities questions].

LS: It's funny you say. There was one reporter, Geri Miller. Do you remember Geri Miller? She was everyone's training ground because she was so good at getting [her questions in]. If you didn't get your question out — she would, and you learned that very quickly. So I feel like she kind of anointed everyone into that position.

CK: Like not waiting for your turn; making it your turn.

LS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, that was always a stressful environment. I stopped doing it long after you, and I never got used to it. I had anxiety going into every event I ever did.

CK: Okay, I'm happy to hear you say that because I've been the same way at things where I'm like, 'No, I have officially [tapped out of this world]. I can't [do it].' If there's a crab cake and a movie, I can't relax. I feel like I'm missing something, and I should be noticing something or finding out something — [to have] to be on all the time. …. Because I worked for a gossip column, I had very specific, very uncomfortable questions. So most of the people I knew were looking more for [topical entertainment] stories — whereas I had to find out, 'Who are you sleeping with? And what are you gonna say when I ask?' And whatever the weird question of the week was. [I was] looking for things that couldn't be reported. Blind items. Because of the nature of it being kind of shady, I feel like I was a little shady. Do you know what I mean? Because my column was every day and it [was focused on] rumors and [quick] soundbites.

LS: And you knew that's what you were there for and, therefore, it was—

CK: It was like a license to be an idiot. To be on the dance floor.

LS: I feel like everyone in that setting who did that job so well—whatever your goal was when you were there—was good at naturally being the life of the party. I was always such a [wallflower]. I had social anxiety for years. I feel like I didn't outgrow [my social anxiety] until throwing myself into [that setting] for work. I had so much anxiety in those settings; so I couldn't be the life of the party. I couldn't have been one of those people. I still was the fly in the wall observing and wishing I could partake and knowing that I wasn't part of it ultimately.

CK: Wasn't that the strangest thing? Being there but not being there. That's what I loved about us and everyone we knew. I feel like it was such a special moment in time. There are a lot of terrible things said about that time and there are a lot of terrible things about it. But one nice thing is [that it existed]. I don't know if that path exists anymore. It feels like social media did take that away.

LS: It did.

CK: But I think of us at an award show or in a circle on a dance floor — just getting to see each other and be dressed up and be together somewhere [while working]. [It was] a nice thing and the opposite of the way the world is now.

LS: Totally. There was such a camaraderie among those of us who understood how strange of a beat it was. And yeah, everyone had different goals there. For me, largely, I was writing for InStyle [at the time]. InStyle sent me to a lot of premieres. And what was nerve-wracking [about it] was… It wasn't invasive questions, but they could be really… let's say silly questions. And I won't name names, even though I'd love to, but I won't. There were just so many instances of having people ream me out. [One person said], 'Talk about my movie premiere, or you're wasting my time,' and it's like, 'Dude, you're making so much more to be here. Just be cool.'

CK: And one of my not naming names… We had limited space on those recorders and you were trying to be smart about what was on that tape to make your job easier. It's ironic given the way my career went, but they [brought] me the author, and I [stopped] recording. And the author is talking and talking and I'm standing there and suddenly he's like, ‘That's not recording, is it?' I'm like, 'Oh. Oops.' You know, I was looking straight up for who flirted with who.

LS: But people on the other end of it—their handlers—should be well versed enough to know [who they should spend time talking to]. [Like,] 'You know what? I'm not gonna get what I need from Caroline. Let's not waste her time. Let's not waste my time.'

CK: But when you're doing that deal of, 'I'll let you talk to this one if you talk to that one.' If I was in that position of dealing with someone, I would let them know, 'Look at this as a warm-up.'

LS: He/she probably thought they were helping you out.

CK: I mean it was all interesting to me. But I was like, 'I don't want to have to fast forward through this,' because I could barely work that electronic thing. And then another time… One of my favorite mess-ups that I did… I went to a certain vegan award dinner in these suede, fringe, in-your-face boots and a mutual friend of ours was like, 'How are you gonna get through the night?' It was a nightmare. … I remember a couple of 'to go unnamed' actresses taking notice.

LS: I would guess we were both at whatever that was. Because I can think of more than a handful of vegan events I went to where I did try to consider things like that ahead of time. But the joke of it all is — let's be extremely honest half the people who were there probably were learning as they went too. Let's put it.

CK: Yes, and [they] were going home to leather sofas. It's an evolving world.

FROM JOURNALIST TO NY TIMES-BESTSELLING AUTHOR

LS: I am curious how those early days in that world… how did you then find yourself in the territory of being an author? I know a lot, but for those who don't… do tell.

CK: You know that thing in your life that you're always doing no matter what? I was always writing short stories. At that point, I was in my early 30s and it was like, 'This doesn't go away. I like to write short stories. Through that, I started writing scripts now and then too. It was a fun time because I would be filing my pieces on the gossip and then I would have a short story in this tiny magazine—blasting everyone [about it when it came out]. I mean, I was that person. I would send the short story to a publicist—in that blind email [way saying], 'Hey, everyone,' and [I knew] that no one was going to read it. But I think so much of it for me was keeping that spirit alive. I loved being creative in that way. And I wanted to do that. So, I went from that world to screenwriting. And that was through journalism. Through interviewing people, I would turn off that tape recorder and [would] tell that showrunner, 'Here's my script.' I look back on those things [and I cringe].

LS: I remember you telling me that. And I always wished I could be that person because that's how you get where you need to go. Our industry is what it is. It's who you know. I feel like it was just so savvy. You found yourself in these settings and you knew in your heart what you wanted to be doing and this was a stepping stone to getting there. What was your approach? Did you tread lightly?

CK: I had a good experience with it in high school. My brother was an extra in the movie 'School Ties,' and it was Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, all of them. But no one knew who they were [yet], and I was going to the set. I had my heart set on interviewing one of them. I didn't know how to do that. My journalist teacher was like, 'Yep, like, that's a great idea.' And I cold called YM Magazine, [as] this demanding 14-year-old, like, 'I need someone to help me find Matt Damon.' And the woman who answered, to this day, [means a lot to me]. It's one of the reasons I wanted to go into journalism. Her name was Linda Friedman. She answered the call. She helped me. She sat there and talked to me on the phone and told me about publicists and gave me information and walked me through it. That always stayed with me—that spirit. That was such a good experience. She, at that point, was in her 20s. And that was always so cool to me and stayed with me. So, I kept that spirit about me — in that way of trying to have a positive mindset of, 'Remember that time that I did that and it worked out well?' Many times, [it didn't] work at all. Not at all.

LS: Usually when something doesn't work out, [it's], 'Nothing ventured. Nothing lost,' but was there ever a time where it [felt particularly disappointing]?

CK: I'm not gonna name names. But do remember Evite?

LS: Of course. It still exists.

CK: You know how everyone's email address was there?

LS: Yeah.

CK: I don't know if it is still that way, but… It was a small dinner party, and I was a plus one. I cannot stress enough that this was not my connection. A gentleman brought me to the party and was well aware of my hopes and dreams for my career. I should have asked him, 'Hey, those few email addresses there of people who are very established, [would it be okay to reach out to them]?' Nope. [I] just bombarded them. I look back. It's—the way the kids say—cringe. It's not that I wrote to them. It's how much I sent them. That's what kills me as an adult. Not that I wasn't an adult then…

LS: No. But you're learning.

CK: And of course, he found out because, again, it was not my connection. But things like that didn't [feel inappropriate then]. And I feel like they were all funny about it in that [way of], 'Oh kid.' But it was a good experience of how not to do it. It's a good example of… I sent them all three things. And then not only did I follow-up, but I followed up with, 'Wait. I sent the wrong version. [Read] this one.' So at that point, they've got multiple attachments. It's like, 'They're not reading these anyway They can't legally.' They're not going to read them. [I didn't know that though.] You only do that to someone if you know them very well.

LS: You do things when you're green. Sometimes that naiveté can get you somewhere.

CK: Yes, exactly.

LS: Sometimes it can also backfire.

CK: To me, the main thing is you respect when you screwed up. That's something that I feel is most important of all. You know when you can't defend what you did except that you did something kind of stupid?

LS: And sometimes you learn the hard way. Was there ever a time when it worked out in a great way, where did it lead to [something]?

CK: Yeah. In New York, I worked for Entertainment Weekly, and there was a website. And this was the age of [where the veteran journalists felt] like, 'Ugh, the website.' I loved the website, and I was obsessed with 'Seventh Heaven.' I saw it as a dark comedy and a satire. I was always pitching [the show], and they were like, 'You can do that on the website.' So, I wrote this thing, comparing the Camden's on Seventh Heaven, to the Osbourne's. That was the height of that Osbournes TV show. The showrunner of that show sent me roses as a thank you, but more importantly, there was a return address. So, I sent scripts and taffy and gifts and she got a kick out of it. We started corresponding, and that was how I got my first script that I wrote for television. [It unfolded] over many years. But I feel like that was a good example of, 'This is when someone sees my work and my writing style and is interested to read because they saw the potential in there.' And, again, it wasn't overnight. And it wasn't automatic.

THE TEEN YEARS

CK: But what about you have you crossed many lines?

LS: I feel like you know me well enough to know that [I haven't in Los Angeles]. I wished [I could]. Yes, [I broke some rules] when I didn't [yet know the rules that were in place as a teenager]. It goes back to the naiveté thing. I don't know if we've ever [talked about this]. I had a website back in the day. Did we talk about this?

CK: Yep.

LS: The web was new and I was a geek in Florida—and I wanted so badly to be a part of the entertainment industry from afar. So, I was reaching out to Britney Spears. I was finding talent before they became talent. So, I reached out to Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera's publicists. By the way, Linda Friedman [who you mentioned earlier]… total side note… I met with Linda when she was at E! She was such a nice person.

CK: She's the best to this day.

LS: It wasn't her. But someone, along the way, when I was a teenager trying to figure out, 'How do I reach Britney Spears?' At the time, [whoever picked up the phone at Teen Magazine] said, 'Reach out to the Screen Actors Guild. They'll be able to point you on to the manager who will then give you the publicist.' So I learned the ropes enough to understand: 'Britney Spears has a publicist,' and who to reach out to [for interviews for my website]. But I didn't realize there were rules. When NSYNC was at the height of [popularity]. I wasn't discovering NSYNC. They were already at the height of their popularity, and I was very much a fangirl and wanted an interview with them for my website. And their publicist, understandably, declined. At the time, you could pretty much figure out anyone's email address depending on where they worked.

CK: Loved that era.

LS: Whatever label they were with was owned by BMG. And I looked to see who the CEO of BMG was and I literally [wrote], 'From one entrepreneur to another, can you help me out?' And he did.

CK: That's amazing. That kind of thinking. When it works, it works. Because everyone is a human, and it doesn't mean they're a good human, but sometimes they are.

LS: But where I see that as a line being crossed is…. Me being a real follower, and now knowing better? Well, I just, you know, stepped on somebody's toes. She did her job. She said no. She was the gatekeeper, and I was like, 'Nope, not good enough. Going to someone above you.' That's something that I did not take with me. I wish I had taken [that] with me into my 20s and 30s, quite frankly. That's just not who I was.

CK: It's interesting those parts of yourself, what you put away without realizing it.

LS: Listen, I don't know that I regret [being such a rule follower in adulthood] because I try not to live that way. I'm happy to be where I am, but it is interesting because I think it's a longer road to get where you need to go [when you play by everybody else's rules—at least here in Hollywood].

CK: It's always some extreme. Because I have the flip side of that of… I feel like [there are] some things I [shouldn't have done]. Who knows? But I agree—on you go.

EXPLORING ONE’S CREATIVITY

LS: On you go and you learn along the way. Speaking of, you had quite a bit under your belt before ‘You’ came about. Tell me about your path.

CK: I had been a staff writer on 'The Secret Life of the American Teenager.' One of my favorite kids' books is Goldilocks… Like, 'This bed is too firm.' That mentality… So, it was like—I just wasn't a good journalist because ….. That was too, 'Stick by the rules.' A quick side story… The first assignment I got for Entertainment Weekly, I went to a Sopranos wrap party. I'd come from Tiger Beat where we didn't have any of that fact-checking. And I had a time. I made friends, and I handed in 10,000 words of my experiences. And [they asked], 'Where are your tapes and your notes? Why is this about you dancing?' I was like, 'Tapes? What? I was at a party!' It was this opening into, 'Oh God. This is not Tiger Beat.' This is the more Barbara Walters way of doing anything. So, in that way hopping from [EW] and then the gossip [for E!] was exhausting, and then writing on a TV show for a year was a group think of group writing, but having all of these requirements and such a specific technicality to it. [It might be], 'We have these actors on this day.' You're not in control as a staff writer. So, after that, I was desperate for that control. I went and made a short film.

LS: I remember.

CK: Everyone thinks, 'Oh, it'll be a couple thousand dollars and a few weeks,' and it'll be great. It was two years and so much debt. It was quite a learning experience. But after that, dealing with—yet again—the confines of the real world [with] permits and limitations and budgets and this and that and also learning… When you're overwhelmed [you ask]. If I don't know and [I think it's important to emphasize] how much you don't know. I was learning so much at once. It made my head spin. Because you simply can't learn about cameras while you're [learning about everything else].

LS: Because you were directing.

CK: I was directing. I had a DP. But there's so much going on at once. So, after doing that I was in 'Joe Goldberg mode,' where I wanted to be in complete total fucking control over everything. [I wanted to] sit in a room, and I had also gone through a long loss of losing my father. So, a combination of things made me feel very aware of how little control we have over the things we love in this world. And to me writing a book and seeing if I could do that, if I could take what I do in a short story and do it in a larger form was the best kind of therapy.

LS: To me, writing is free therapy. Actually, I remember your short film because I want to say that somehow when we reconnected… We knew each other peripherally in the world of entertainment journalism and being at these events…. But I feel like somehow I wound up seeing your short film and I reached out. I felt connected to you somehow through that.

CK: Yep, because it had been a while.

LS: That's the thing about [being] out here. You have so many creative types that are always working on things. You float in and out of each other's lives. But it's amazing how you can pick up right where you left off.

CK: Exactly. I love that. That's what I love about artistic people. Yeah, everyone's up to something, and it's so fun to see them and see what they've been up to.

LS: But I distinctly remember that the short film because I remember being impressed. As somebody who's always been interested in a lot of different creative endeavors, I don't know that it occurred to me that you can take it upon yourself to write something and then direct it. Even if it's not the route that you wound up deciding to go, it led you to your next step.

CK: Because you always learn from everything you're doing. I was just talking to a friend [about] how before I moved to LA, I was in a play on Cape Cod in the winter, and I was like the lead, and I'd never been in a play. But as I was starting to try and write scripts, I was like, 'I want to memorize lines,' because it was a note I'd gotten from friends—that kept feeling like I was writing too long and too much. Memorizing lines makes you [appreciate it that much more]. Like, 'Oh, right. Every word really does matter.' It was like, 'I'm not gonna be an actress, but I love that I came here with that experience of understanding.' To me, the short film was having this respect for [the process]. Adapting things is not easy. Because I was adapting my work, and I was like, 'This was supposed to be so easy.' I love the learning process. You're probably going through that with [this site]. When you start to build something, you're like, 'Oh, right. This is new territory.'

LS: I have to admit, though. I always knew I could wear a lot of different hats because when I had my site back in the day as a teenager, I made a living doing this site. I mean, it was before there was any real money [put into] the internet because brands didn't get it yet. I missed the timing of that. And then once brands were putting money into all of that, I was like, 'No, I'm going legit. I'm doing legacy media. That's the future.'

CK: I can relate to that. The timing thing.

LS: I always knew I could wear other hats. It just would have to be for something meaningful to me. And so it wasn't until launching The Retaility that I put any of that into motion. Honestly, storytelling is where my heart is. I'm a storyteller at heart but the type of storytelling [I enjoy doesn't fit into the current media landscape]. There's a time and place for nonsense. I love nonsense. I am so grateful for nonsense. I think it very much serves a purpose. But I noticed that a lot of the types of stories that I used to get green-lit—that fed my soul—were not being green-lit anymore. So, that's why I launched the site. But the other piece of it is… I'm enjoying [that] I am learning as I go—whether it's doing the marketing or even the PR. Even the photography on occasion. It's fun because I also feel like the stakes aren't high. As you talk about with screenwriting, the stakes aren't high. Quite frankly, the stakes will never be high again because… Evan, as you know, everything with my daughter, put life into perspective. So, my career used to be so important. And it is because I'm ambitious. I enjoy the process of it all.

THE INFLUENCE OF MISS EVAN

CK: And in that way… Something I love about her and when you write about Evan… People say it, but to see it and see someone doing it in their way of that seizing [of life]. I remember reading about the sunglasses and knowing. I thought, 'Yes, for someone to be that motivated to find their own way of communicating—it's their form of personal storytelling; of her being that young and knowing how to tell the story of what her day looked like to her.' That's powerful stuff. So, I see that reflected. That's a beautiful merging of your two [professions]. And Michael, too, Yes, having parents that are artistic and care and want to know.

LS: Well, thank you for saying that. Yeah. She managed to say so much without ever saying a word. I shouldn't say without ever saying a word. Toward the end [of her life], I have a video of her trying to say, 'Mom.' She understood everything but couldn't express it in a traditional way. So we found ways for her to communicate. But thank you for that — with the sunglasses.

CK: It's also in the same way [of] when you talked about the books that she loved. She was going to love what she was gonna love, and she was going to get it. And that's the most beautiful spirit.

LS: I appreciate that, and I have to say… I really owe [me finding my voice] to her. You know, writers talk about 'finding your voice,' and whatever the hell that actually means, I couldn't have told you. And I still don't know that you can't. Because it is one of those [intangible] things where…

CK: It's keys. You find it, and then you put it somewhere you don't remember putting it.

LS: But I now know… I found my voice in becoming Evan's voice. Period. It's one and the same. So yeah, I mean I feel like I owe so much to her. She's at the top of my mind for obvious reasons. But also I think it's interesting too… So, I don't know if you would connect these two things because we each have distinct memories of different times. What's interesting is before understanding how life was going to unfold with her. We had no idea prenatally. [Her diagnosis] all unfolded when she was four to six months. We were given an umbrella diagnosis and no real understanding of what that meant. But what's wild is… I remember your show ['YOU'] debuted the week she was born. That [period is] such a blur [regardless]. Who would remember things like this? But I remember because I was like, 'Wait. I'm barely sleeping. I'm nursing. I'm tired. But I want [to watch].' And I remember sitting down and watching the show, and I don't think I ever got a chance to tell you that.

CK: Oh, I love that. That's wow.

LS: Because this was such a distinct period before we knew how life was going to unfold, I remember [it well]. It's interesting how lives can change in such different ways.

“YOU” AS A TELEVISION SERIES

LS: What did that period look like for you with the show? We're catching up in a way a little bit. Because I'm realizing, I don't know if we've ever talked [about that period]. How exciting was it to have something being brought to the screen?

CK: It was so exciting. It was another reason I was happy that I lived here and understood the process. Because everything takes a while until it all happens very fast. It was on Lifetime originally, and they were the most supportive wonderful group of people. The build-up to it—[I have] so many nice little memories. I remember the first time they sent me a … clip of Penn [Badgley] reading [from the script]. I [had] chills. I remember where I was when that happened. I was like, 'Oh yeah. That's that's gonna do it.'

LS: [It was] the cold read?

CK: Yes. It was like, 'That man can hold a book.' And seeing it all come together and getting to know everyone and being involved in it was very exciting. Then little things were mind-blowing. The first appearance we ever did, and having gone on a press tour [as a journalist] and been at those things [in the opposite capacity]... Going back to what I said earlier about not recording the author — I was trying to tell myself not to be nervous. Because I [thought], 'We're going up there. No one's to have anything for me. There all these famous people.' I'm backstage, and I'm shaking... I didn't know him then—but John Stamos was like, 'It's okay.' I'm like, 'It's not.'

LS: It's nerve-wracking.

CK: And he sang to me, and I was like, 'Now this has gone to a new level of surreal. What is happening?' He's like, 'This will relax you.' I'm like, 'This is not relaxing. What is [happening in my life]?' I think I talked a little, but I [don't remember]. He had said, 'Oh no. Everyone will have questions for you.' I'm like, 'No, John. I come from this world. I've been in that audience. When I get my turn, I'm not asking the author [anything].'

LS: Now I'm curious—because we do [still have so many friends] in that world. Did you know a lot of people in that room and did they ask you questions?

CK: Yeah. [It was] bizarre. I think it's why I'm nervous when I'm doing interviews because I'm so aware of editing and the need for quotes. And by nature, I speak as a rambler, and I know how awful that is. So every time I do an interview, at the end, I'm like, 'Oh, I'm sorry, I tried to [be concise]. Please email me. Here's my email if you need a concise statement that's usable.'

LS: It's funny because, obviously, I still do so many interviews [with people]. Everyone's a rambler. It's not just you. I'm a rambler. Everyone's a rambler. I feel like by the end of the interview, people are always apologizing. I'm like, 'No, it's my job. It's fine. There are nuggets within [the conversation].

CK: Yep… And dot dot dot. And it was nice to see the worlds come together. One of my favorite moments… Season one, it was new and exciting. We had an event at Palihouse [in West Hollywood, California]. I had so many readers come in, and we were going out after, and we were all backstage and one after [another] were introduced. When I walked out there, John said the readers screamed louder [for me]. It was amazing. He was like, 'You're the [rockstar]. What's going on?' I'm like, 'Yeah. Readers are passionate, amazing people.' And so to see those worlds come together, and everyone loves something for years together, and then [to] see it expand is magic.

AUTHORS ARE ROCKSTARS

LS: I do think there are people within Hollywood who get it. But I do wish Hollywood as a whole would understand, 'Yeah, authors are [rockstars].' I'm not an author, so I can say it… You don't have to agree. But authors are stars in their own right. They have such voracious fan bases, very active fan bases.

CK: The first thing I did when I moved here… I remember going to Skylight Books and having all these plans and what to say to an author and getting up there and being [shy].

LS: I do wish Hollywood would understand that more so. Maybe the difference is authors don't want to be seen [and as visible as actors or directors].

CK: I think that's a big part of it. Yeah.

LS: They would rather be heard through their words than seen. I get that, too, because doing this side, I do feel I somehow need to be more forward-facing than I would naturally want to be [since I launched my publication and have big dreams for sharing my daughter's story]. I think, nowadays, no matter what it is that you're doing—whatever product you're selling—I get it. They need someone out there selling it with social media and whatever. I do get that. In the way that The Black List with scripts celebrates screenwriters.

CK: Yeah, that's a good analogy.

LS: I'd like to see that with authors. And there are some [like Colleen Hoover and our mutual friend, Taylor Jenkins Reid]. Don't get me wrong.

CK: And because there are so many. There are just so many books. It's overwhelming in the way that every week [more are released]. It's a lot.

LS: Also, total side note just as I'm thinking. I think, too, For years, the only reason why I thought L.A. and New York were the only cities that I was ever gonna live in or the only cities that exist [in mind] is because…

CK: Did you think that when you were a little kid?

LS: [I'm from Florida], and it was always going to be New York or Los Angeles. There was nothing in between.

CK: Yep.

LS: Weather-wise LA won.

CK: We would have gotten along very well in the first place.

LS: I know.

CK: Yeah, [it was] Hollywood or Manhattan [for me, too,—though I'm from Cape Cod].

LS: Yes! Pretty much I came out of the womb [like that]. And I [should have known] that you were like that—of course. We knew what we wanted. We knew what worlds we wanted to be a part of. We didn't necessarily know…

CK: Our place in it.

LS: And, quite frankly, I feel like I'm still figuring that all out.

CK: Oh, yeah. That's what I love. That's part of the magic of it.

LS: I think maybe that's what I love about this town—more so than I would imagine New York—is that I feel like you can wear many different hats [here]. You don't have to be solely a novelist versus a screenwriter. You can wear all these hats, and one thing might take off before the other, but you're allowed [to explore]. It's a playground and hotbed for creativity.

CK: Yeah, it's something I have teased in some of my books—kind of poking fun at—but it's something I love. That guy who has the card that [says], 'Producer, writer, editor, director, doctor, lawyer?' Like, go. Do it.

FINDING ONE’S VOICE (AND FOOTING) IN HOLLYWOOD

LS: [This conversation is bringing me back to] when I read 'YOU' for the first time, I remember it also feeling like… wait… I know this sounds funny… but 'I didn't know writers could write like this,' and what I mean is… It felt so personal, and there were so many pop culture references, and there was something about it that spoke to me in a way that I felt like I hadn't read before. Your voice was all over the page. I could hear you.

CK: It's what you were saying before. But the way you said that about Evan… I feel like when my dad was going, I thought…. Whenever I wrote short stories, I wrote as myself. But whenever I tried to write a novel something happened to me. I got self-conscious, and was like, 'It was raining that night,' and tried to make things gigantic. It was like, 'God. We're only here for a bit. I'm just going to be myself. I'm going to write and do all the things that I'm self-conscious of or that we've all overheard from the cultural voice… [In the past, some have said,] 'Pop culture references? That's dating something.' I was like, 'I'm gonna date this thing. I'm gonna date it.'

LS: But it's so funny. You're absolutely right. [For] those who don't know, a rule [of writing] is you're supposedly not supposed to sprinkle stuff like that in for one reason or another. But to me when it's done right, it doesn't age. But to your point as far as having fun with the writer, actor, director, doctor… There are some people who that's truly who they are. They're not a jack-of-all-trades and a master of none; they somehow [are just that talented]. This also is a town that has a lot of types [who fall into the former category].

CK: But that was one of those things I loved when I moved here. I would meet people and believe everything they said. Because in New York, you say it how it is. The same way in New York… I don't know about you but it was never like, 'Let's get drinks.' It was like, 'See ya.' And here, I was like, 'Everyone wants to be my friend.' I'd go home and email someone I thought was running a TV show and selling a restaurant. And not only would I not hear back but it would be that none of that was true. I'm like, 'You just go around saying what you want to say?' That's the way you are when you're little and you play with dolls.

LS: Which I think I struggled with here in Los Angeles quite a bit. Not even in the early days. It took me years [to differentiate between who was genuine out here]. But I also think by virtue of being [a journalist and often having a front-row seat to observing working actors, producers, and creatives], I started having [the ability to read people]. You can meet someone, and you can sense if it's your type of person or not. Also, I think what I became comfortable with was understanding… Not everyone has to be my BFF. You can have people that you're just friendly with too. I was always someone who—if I'm going to sit down with someone—they have to be able to have real talk. But it doesn't mean you need to sit down with everybody.

CK: I do think that that's an extreme L.A. thing as well. I think it's because of how difficult it is to get together with people. To me, in New York, everything is kind of doable.

LS: Admittedly, my experience with New York was just a couple of internships during the summer. And then I do some fashion weeks in New York, so I get to know people. But a lot of those same people also then would come out here. We were all like-minded somehow.

CK:- My first time in New York was a good disaster. Not a disaster, but just a learning of, 'This is not what's right for me.'

LS: How so?

CK: I got an internship at 'Conan O 'Brien' when it was a new show. I was so excited, and it was every day. They taped it every day. It made me crazy. The energy was just too much. It was a good learning experience to see people perform under that kind of pressure and work under that kind of pressure. I feel like I didn't sleep for three weeks. Because I wasn't even going out there.

LS: Even as an intern?

CK: As a script intern—standing in the circle right before and going through the jokes—I was [overwhelmed] and the audience [was there]. I shake when I talk about it now, and I left it early. I love that kind of learning experience. Like, 'Okay. Now. I know something about myself.'

LS: Interesting.

CK: That was what drew me toward journalism. Tiger Beat was once a month. Entertainment Weekly was once a week. 'Oh, yes, baby.' That's my kind of pacing. That every day before the internet was what it is… And that's what always fascinates me about living and working in the now… When everything is 20 times a day. Because I wasn't adjusting well to that. I don't know about you, but in journalism—when it was when everything was shifting to that 24-hour [news cycle].

LS: I had my site back in the day but in terms of dealing with that transition… I was starting here in Los Angeles around the time of that transition—when they were still figuring it out. It wasn't an everyday [cycle yet]. I remember, InStyle was relaunching their website and trying to figure out, 'What is this digital thing? How do we show up for it? What does that look like for us?' So, I remember that time, but also—in a way—I can't remember that time anymore because… who has the time to remember that time?

CK: The column I worked for was weekly, and that was part of why I wanted the job at E! Then it went daily, and it was like the claws scratching at the door. To look around and see, 'Well, everyone's jobs are changing.'

LS: In that world, still to this day, if you're not pivoting with it, then find a new [job]. That's been an interesting thing for me. Hence my site.

CK: It's reading the tea leaves and knowing, 'Uh oh.' That's what happens in life over and over. It's almost like if you're at a party, and there's a bad vibe, you're like, 'Yeah. Shit's about to go down.'

LS: My heart is in journalism, and I love what it was and what it could still be. Everyone knows. It's a time of transition. Everyone's figuring it out. At a certain point, I just realized, 'If I'm staying on this ship, [steer it] in a different direction.' And I still do a lot of writing for legacy [media]. Because, again, that's where my heart is.

CK: I know that was the dream—legacy media. Even the way it's now called 'legacy media.'

LS: It sounds so old.

CK: It sounds like early bird supper. Every time some magazine folds, I'm sad. Because I remember being a little kid and looking at those mastheads and [the fact that] they were all real people. And I remember learning about Curtis Sittenfeld, one of my favorite writers in Seventeen magazine. They were a portal [to another life and world]. I know we have the internet, but there was something special about [it]. It was so special, It was once a month. And now everything is all the time.

LS: It's all the time. In many ways, it's great to have so many voices [being heard]. Obviously. I think sometimes, too, though it's hard to find a voice that speaks to you when there are so many voices. Yes.

CK: I feel for people who are younger being overwhelmed by the volume and knowing [what to listen to]; to hear all these different voices, to consider all these different things. There's so much, and while you're reading something something new is being said. What you just read is now [dated].

LS: Right.

CK: Is this what becoming old is?

LS: Oh, yes. I said to [someone's kid] the other day, 'Oh my gosh. How are you such an adult now?' And I realized, 'Oh my gawd. I'm officially old.' If you're saying that, you're old. That's that.

WHAT’S NOW & NEXT

LS: I wouldn't know how to answer this question myself, but I'm gonna ask you in case you do. What does the future look like for you? What's next so to speak? What would make you happiest?

CK: I've written a few things [between 2023-2024]. I had a different year. Usually, I'm primarily working on a novel. This was the first year in a while that I was just working on different things. I love them all, and it's like they're a litter of puppies. It's funny because I'm afraid of dogs. I love them but from afar. You know in 'Marley & Me,' when she goes in to pick the puppy, and she's like, 'Which one do I pick?' I like knowing I'm not sure. I'm hoping one of them will lead to more work, and I'll get to develop and explore it further. It's just been fun to [explore new ideas] after spending the last 10 years with one character so much. I mean, I do want to spend more time with [Joe Goldberg], but it was refreshing to stretch and do other different things. I feel excited to see what comes next. I'm starting a book soon, but I don't want to talk about that just yet.

LS: I get all of that. [It must be nice] to be in more of a time of creation where you're creating a lot of different worlds and a lot of different potential characters that have your heart.

CK: What about you?

LS: These are the conversations I have with my therapist every week. I have so many things I'm pursuing at once while hoping they all one day somehow connect. In my heart, I know I want to write a book about Evan. I know that. I haven't sat down to do it because, honestly, I'm only now starting to put my life back on track, in a way, if I'm being honest. I'm beyond grateful. I was blessed to also have [my son] Reid, and I say that because that obviously does not replace [Evan]. But I had to give into his reality, too, and he's such a joyful guy. And so, he's only [now three]. It's a time when he's benefiting from being in a school setting, and I'm benefiting from being able to now deal with a lot [when it comes to grief surrounding the loss of Evan as well as my shifting industry]. And I've dealt with all of this [during] this period. But I feel like it's now me putting the pieces of my life back together. I've had this site that I've been passionately working on for the last handful of years, but trying to focus some attention on turning a passion project into a business, because that's how it's going to have to be.

CK: Absolutely.

LS: And how it should be. I feel like people should be paid for passion quite frankly.

CK: I like that.

LS: And then on top of that feeling like maybe somehow all these little dots will connect to the greater goal of sharing Evan's story.

CK: Yeah because I think giving yourself the space and the grace to feel it [right now]. And then it's a knowing. There's going to be one day, when you least expect it, that it's just like, 'Oh, here I am doing this.'

LS: The challenging thing is my therapist will say, 'Sit down and do it,' and it's like, 'Cool but with what time?' I use words to make a living. So, it's a tricky thing. My fear is simply that I don't want to forget. I went through so much [with Evan], and I think it would be such a disservice to forget. I am very forgetful, and I just don't want to forget any little detail. I want Reid to know Evan's story.

CK: That's why I'm so appreciative of your writing. When you do write in your essays, there is so much detail of that. To me, the magic of writing is when you're somewhere that you've never been. There was one piece… you went through a series of moments of people calling her out on the street. I was like, 'I'm on that street. I feel that.' So, I appreciate writing that down, because it's all those things that you assume that you'll remember. And memory is a scary thing that way. But that's where I'm so glad [you wrote during that time]. That's a gift to yourself, to your son, to your family, to the world.

LS: Thank you.

CK: So, remember that you've done that.

LS: Thank you so much for that.

CK: And that's a big deal. Then, when you go and look at that work, it's going to spark other memories.

LS: Completely. Thank you for that.

CK: It's not easy to do. As you know.

LS: I think that's also why I'm not gonna sit down and put myself through the wringer [again] for no reason. It needs to serve a greater purpose. Always. That's why I wrote those when I did. [In the earliest days when Evan's story was still unfolding], I didn't know if I'd ever write about Evan, but when the pandemic hit, I just felt like it all served a greater purpose. And anyway, so I don't know. We'll see whatever point in time like that feels right. But thank you for that because I do revisit those essays when I need to be reminded of what it felt like to be in her presence because I think that's something I still struggle with. I thought, 'Now that I've learned what it's like to be present, I'm present,' I didn't anticipate, 'Well, of course, once she's no longer in your presence, it's going to be hard to conjure up that magic.'

CK: The scent. And the feeling. And the togetherness.

LS: So, I revisit them myself.

CK: And then having a whole new kind of togetherness. Reid. It's a balance…

LS: And also, figuring out how to tell that story to him one day and explain it in a way that's not [terrifying]…

CK: I have no doubt you can do that. I feel like that'll be a story that is helpful to so many people and inspiring and moving and all the things.

LS: Thank you, thank you, thank you.