In Conversation: Constance Zimmer & Katie Aselton

Best friends Constance Zimmer and Katie Aselton have so much in common they often compare notes.

“We, literally, have to call each other when we're going to be together—” Zimmer says.

“Because we wear the same outfit,” Aselton interjects. “Everywhere.”

“I have that same outfit,” Zimmer adds, referencing the t-shirt and jeans Aselton is wearing from a recent Mother Denim x Claire Vivier capsule collection. “I would have worn it, but I knew she was wearing it.”

Aselton laughs. “I said, ‘Don't wear it [today].’”

Their similarities aren’t relegated to their sense of style or trains of thought. As accomplished actresses and directors, the women — who often finish each others’ sentences — met in the early days of motherhood. They quickly discovered they share a likeminded approach to parenting, work, and everything in between. Not to mention their mutual quick-witted, tongue-in-cheek, often deadpan sense of humor, which is on full display when they gather at The Retaility founder Lindzi Scharf’s Los Angeles home to participate in our “In Conversation” series.

Keep reading as they reflect on their individual journeys to Hollywood, their professional triumphs (for Zimmer—“UnReal,” “House of Cards,” and “The Lincoln Lawyer;” for Aselton—“The League” and the forthcoming SXSW film “Magic Hour”), their approach to balancing work and motherhood, and their thoughts on evolving in a town focused on the latest trends. But first, they reminisce about the meet-cute that led to their lifelong friendship.

THE MEET CUTE

KATIE ASELTON: Constance and I met because our kids were going to the same school. We have a mutual friend, Busy Phillips, who told me that Constance [would] be in our class. She [said], 'Katie, you guys are going to be best friends. You have to find her.'

CONSTANCE ZIMMER: You have to find her. She shops at this store. On this day. At this time. And if she's not there, she'll be at this store. At this time.

KA: I didn't have to stalk you because we had a new parent mixer at the weirdest house in Hancock Park that was empty. There was no furniture in it. Do you remember that? It was so bizarre, and I showed up, and I [only] knew one person there, and I knew I had to find Constance, but what I didn't [consider] was that Constance was hot at that moment. She was [in] 'House of Cards.'

CZ: I was? Oh my God. I was hot at that moment? When was that?

KA: I mean, it was a moment. Yeah.

CZ: When was that moment?

KA: You had a moment. 

CZ: Let me remember.

KA: It was peak 'House of Cards.' You were super buzzy. And everyone was surrounding you. You're tiny, and there were mounds of people around [you]. And I was like, 'Ugh, I'm not into that.'

CZ: She's like, 'Ugh, actresses.'

KA: I was on 'The League' at the time. I was pretty hot as well, but nobody watched that show in our [kids'] class.

CZ: You tell your version. Then, I'll tell [you] my version.

KA: No one knew who the heck I was, but that's okay. So, I was talking to our other mutual friend who was there, and finally, at the end of the night, I [saw] Constance, and I [thought], 'I have an opening.' So I went up to her, and I [said], 'Hi, we're supposed to be best friends.'

CZ: Then I said okay. What's funny is... My perception of that meeting is [similar but different]. Busy also said to me, 'You have to meet Katie. You guys are going to be best friends. Your kids are going to be in the same grade, and you should totally find her.'

KA: [You're] like, 'I went to this party, and everyone was adoring me, and I couldn't look for Katie at that party.'

CZ: No, I don't remember it that way at all.

KA: 'Because unless she's a 'House of Cards' fan, I'm not going to meet her.' I love you.

CZ: I do not remember it that way at all. I remember going to this party and looking around—

KA: And wondering where all the furniture was.

CZ: I was like, 'Oh my god. Our kid is going to go to private school, and what is that? And who are these people?' There was a giant tennis court in their backyard, and I thought, 'I don't have a tennis court. I don't even have a pool. What am I doing here?' And I [saw you] from across the courtyard. It was as if you turned [toward me in slow motion]. This is how I remember it. You saw me. And you were like, 'Bing,' and I thought, 'Oh my God, is that Katie?' You saw me, and I saw you. Then you came over, and you [said], 'We're meant to be. Busy says we're going to be best friends.' I was like, 'Great,' and then we talked the rest [of the night]. I don't remember meeting any other parent because you took over.

KA: That's how I roll.

CZ: I [thought], 'This is it. This is going to be my person from kindergarten on.' Until I left the school, but that's another story.

KA: But it was love at first sight, and you have been my best friend ever since.

CZ: Yeah.

KA: That's right. So, we were at the same school. Our kids had started kindergarten together. You were on 'House of Cards.' I was on 'The League.' Two very different shows. Both [are] cult classics.

STRONG WOMEN

CZ: But can I also say something that you and I have never talked about before?

KA: Sure.

CZ: You and I both were on shows that were mostly male-dominated. Shows like 'Entourage' and 'The League.' You and I were the stalwart women of these really masculine shows. We didn't just stand out because we were women, but we held our own.

KA: We could go toe-to-toe with very strong, oft-difficult men.

CZ: What? Men are difficult?

KA: It's so fascinating. I feel like there was a kindred spirit in that connection of, 'We're not pushovers.'

CZ: We have these strengths of [holding our own while] surrounded by men in our jobs.

KA: And war stories where we could easily go to each other and [say], 'Oh my God.'

CZ: And people will always refer to you as 'The Girl from The League,' and I will always be 'Dana Gordon from Entourage.' It doesn't matter what I do or don't do. 

KA: I mean, it could be worse. That's fantastic.

CZ: No, it's great. I'm saying, in hindsight, it's funny [we're close friends]. It makes so much sense.

KA: Yeah, I've never really thought about that. Dana Gordon [from 'Entourage'] and Jenny Macarthur [from 'The League'] would obviously be best friends, too.

CZ: For sure.

KA: Although my wardrobe did not come close to your wardrobe on that show.

CZ: Well, that's okay.

KA: Mine was Old Navy sale rack.

CZ: Yeah, but that's far more comfortable.

KA: Is it?

CZ: I mean, look at us. We, clearly, are women who like to be comfortable.

BALANCING MOTHERHOOD

KA: What I always admired about you was your ability to balance motherhood and [your] career so beautifully because it wasn't easy. You were doing 'House of Cards,' which was shot in D.C. and Baltimore, and we live in Los Angeles. I was on a show that shot in Los Angeles. Right in the Valley. So, my experience was a little different. You were all over and yet still were the most present, involved, loving mom. Constance was the crafter. She ran a craft camp for all the kids every summer.

CZ: Camp Coco.

KA: That's her daughter's name. [Coco, which is a nickname for Colette].

CZ: Well, that was out of guilt, though. That was clearly out of guilt because I felt so bad.

KA: But she doesn't know that. That doesn't matter.

CZ: I wasn't around.

KA: You were still there. It doesn't matter what motivates you to be a good mom. What matters is that you are a great mom. She doesn't know that it came out of guilt.

CZ: That's very kind of you to say because it never feels that way as the person in it. Then, I also started on 'Unreal,' which was [shot in] Vancouver and [involved me] being gone for months.

KA: I started 'Legion,' which was also [in] Vancouver. But not at the same time. We had flip-flopped schedules, which was the worst. But that was my first time having to work for a long period of time out of town. And it does a doozy on you. It's so hard.

CZ: It was hard. I think I'm realizing and understanding that the balance is being okay with it not being balanced. Right?

KA: Well, my mom said the most amazing thing to me early on. When I was pregnant with Ora, my first, I [had been saying], 'Oh my God. It's going to be so weird. I'm worried. I'm on a show, and I'm going to have a nanny, and we're going to be traveling, and it's going to be wild.' She [said to me], 'You set the tone for what is normal. She doesn't know what normal is. You create normal.' So if it's normal for you, and you're doing the best you can, and she's loved and cared for? That's her normal. That's all you can ever do. You can't compare yourself to a mom in the Midwest who lives a [more] traditional life of either being stay-at-home or working nine-to-five. It's a different experience. But your normal is her normal, and all you can do is show up in the best way you can. You have 100% done that because you are an incredible mother, and you have an incredible child, who I am obsessed with.

CZ: That's very kind. But I only had one [kid]. You have two.

KA: Well, I have two mediocre kids. {huge laugh; clearly joking}

CZ: That's not true at all.

KA: And I'm not a great mom. {also clearly joking}

CZ: None of this is true. This is what I find so [interesting]. When you can look at somebody's story from the outside, you have a much different take on it [versus] being in it and living it.

KA: Of course, because we are terrible to ourselves. We're critical, and we're our own worst enemies in that way. But from the outside, and not even that far outside, I'm very close to you looking at it… you're doing a great job.

CZ: Well, you're doing a great job too. You and I would talk about this all the time, and that was what was so wonderful about that [era]. When I did come home from filming [in another country], I would see you every day at school, and it was grounding. [It was a reminder]: 'This is my life. This is my work.' It's interesting you say you were shooting in L.A. on 'The League,' and then when you went away [it was harder] because I look back now, and I don't think I could have done 'Unreal' and be a mom if it was in L.A.

KA: I think aside from our own guilt and missing our kids and our partners, it is easier to work out of town than it is to work in town. God, I remember one day on 'The League,' it was very early in kindergarten—and you'll remember this—it was the first week of kindergarten, and Mark and I were both shooting because Mark [Duplass], my husband, was also on 'The League' at the same time. We were in a big group scene, and I [was] in the center of the scene… because, as the girl, you always get stuck in the center of those group scenes. And I'm not complaining. I loved it. I loved being in the center of every scene. But we got a call in the middle of this day-long scene that [our daughter] Ora fell and broke her arm. Mark, thankfully, was on the outside of the scene. So, they just shifted the camera a little and let him go. But to be here and to not be able to get there … is wild.

CZ: Coco took that bad fall when she chipped her tooth and scraped her whole face up, and I remember I was in Vancouver.

KA: Oh god. That was awful. I was there. You didn't want to see it. It was awful.

CZ: And Russ [Lamoureux, my husband], was calling me, and I was in the middle of a scene, and my phone was hidden under some books, but I could see it was lighting up. I [thought], 'He knows I'm shooting. Why is he calling me?' Then, there was a voicemail, but I didn't listen to it because I was shooting. Then a photo popped up, and it was Coco's face. I burst into tears. I ran off the set. I called Russ, and I was like, 'What happened?' I remember I couldn't get home until the next day. Those are the moments where you go, 'Fuck. I wasn't there. What do I do? Is she going to remember that I wasn't there? That I couldn't help her?'

KA: Do you know what she'll remember? She'll remember, 'Oh my God. My mom dropped everything and flew back home the next day.' That's a big deal. It's different than, 'My got home from work that day and asked me, Are you okay?’

CZ: Yeah.

KA: But here's the thing... She doesn't remember.

CZ: I know. Another great thing about motherhood that people don't say very often is… Truthfully, they aren't going to remember as much as we think they remember.

KA: They will hold on to things we won't even clock. And they will forget the things that we are holding on to. The most. They're going to have other shit. We're going to be like, 'I'm sorry. What is this core memory?'

CZ: 'Do you remember when you said, Are you trying to show your midriff?' And I'll be like, 'What? I don't even remember saying that.' But yeah. That's what I get now.

KA: 'You scarred me in this way.' [And] you don't have any recollection of [it].

THE MYTH OF “HAVING IT ALL”

CZ: The whole 'having it all' concept is not really what we're striving for. Would you agree? We are striving to be present [every given moment]. When you're home, you're present with your kids, your husband, your house, all of your stuff, and your dogs. Then, when you're at work, you're present with work. So it's like, 'You were at work. Yes, this happened. But Mark could leave, great.' So, one parent is [always] helping and making it all okay. And I have Russ as well. My husband [is] at home helping her. Just because I couldn't be there didn't mean it was bad or wrong.

KA: But we're lucky. We have good partners. That's kind of what it is, too. But I do agree that the whole idea of 'having it all' is a completely unachievable [thing]. You don't want it all. Because my all is different than your all. So, what is having it all? Having it all is being able to have [or find] balance, right? It's not having it all. The goal is to find balance. 

CZ: And having it all is being grateful for what you have. There [are] always these questions [about] balancing motherhood and career and friendships. [Sometimes] you lose friends when you have kids; you gain friends when you have kids. And it becomes this stew. But what's been so wonderful [is] when you have your best friend, who's also a mom, and you're raising kids at the same time—you can reflect each other's greatness. I can say to you, 'She's such a [great mom]. How does she do it all?'

KA: 'How does she do it all?'

CZ: 'And look so good!' But it is true. When you look at our kids and the experiences we've given them, [I realize we're doing right by them]. And we haven't lost ourselves, that's important. And I see you do that, too. 

KA: And it's hard because I think you have moments of losing yourself either to parenthood, or to your career, or to yourself even when you're just going so far into yourself that you can't see what's going on outside of you. But having a friend living a parallel life has been such a gift because I have other dear friends [whose lives differ from mine]. Their lives are a little different. Their kids are a little younger. Their careers are different; they're not married. I have beautiful relationships with them, too, and they offer so much – [by] having a different life. So, it's a different perspective, but to have a friend who is mirroring so closely where you're going and can check you as you go along [is amazing]. How many conversations have we had walking? Being like, 'My career, or my husband. My kids.' But, because we've been in lockstep the whole time, we can [say], 'Shut the fuck up. You're fine.' Or, 'My God. I so feel you right now. This is all valid,' which is hard when someone doesn't share those same experiences to understand. So, I'm grateful.

CZ: Also, you've been a very good—

KA: Singer. Just kidding.

{They laugh.}

CZ: Yeah, you can sing. I was going to say... it was fun when our kids were at school together.

KA: It was the best.

CZ: Because when I wasn't there, you were like [a] second mom to her. She trusted you. She talked to you about things that she didn't want to talk to Russ about. She wanted to have another [woman]—

KA: I taught her about a boner.

CZ: Yeah, that's right. I mean, I wasn't going to say it. But [you] said it.

KA: I did. She asked what it was, and so I told her. 

CZ: But I love that.

KA: That's what I'm here for.

CZ: Right. But that's so cute. Because she would have been too embarrassed to hear that from her mom. I like that we've been able to do that for each other. Like, when we took Ora camping, I loved that. That has been [a] bonus to our friendship—of being mothers and working women.

KA: I love being so close to Coco. Even though she is not at our school anymore. I'm sad, but going to dinner at your house the other night and having that [bond is special]. She's such a rad kid, and I love that I'm still her kooky aunt. It's the best.

CZ: Who doesn't want to be the kooky aunt? Hello! That's my whole career!

KA: You had one job of literally being the kooky aunt.

CZ: That's true, I did. I didn't even realize that. See? Yeah. I can't remember shit.

KA: Everything else has been very sexy badass.

CZ: Sexy badass?

KA: Wouldn't you agree?

CZ: No.

KA: Dana [on 'Entourage']? You're [also] pretty sexy and badass on 'House of Cards.'

CZ: Not sexy at all.

KA: Oh, that hair? Those extensions!

CZ: I was wearing creepers and the same jeans every day.

KA: I think creepers are cute.

CZ: I mean, they are…

KA: Sexy is a subjective thing. And you were a journalist, which is hot. You were a truth-teller.

CZ: I wish I was as smart as Janine [on 'House of Cards'].

KA: And then on 'Unreal?' Very sexy badass. I mean, bitch. The worst.

CZ: B.I.T.C.H. 'Being in total control of herself.' Whatever. That's not original. I stole that from Krysten Ritter. But it works.

KA: I don't like acronyms.

CZ: But it's a fake acronym. It's a made-up one that works.

KA: Sure.

FROM PAGEANTS TO “THE PUFFY CHAIR”

CZ: When did you know that you wanted to be an actor? What age were you?

KA: That's a good question. I have a series of answers. I'm the youngest of four kids. So, [I] was always striving for attention and hungry for it. My older sister Mary [Aselton Budd]—who has gone on to produce two of my feature [films] that I directed—used to put on productions in our house. She would write and direct, and I would get cast as the baby deer. That was my first job.

CZ: But how old was that?

KA: I was probably three. I remember watching 'E.T.' and looking at Drew Barrymore and being like, 'We're the same age, what's [she doing]?' Then, I went and saw 'Les [Miserables]', and I saw Cosette. At the time, the girl playing Cosette looked like me. [She had] long blonde hair, and we were the same size.

CZ: You saw it on Broadway? Or where did you see it?

KA: In Boston. Off-Broadway. It was a traveling production. I saw it when I was eight. At that point, I was like, 'Oh, I would love that.' So, I was in all of my school productions until high school. There was a drama club, [but] in the four years I was in high school, they did not put on one production.

CZ: You were born in—

KA: Maine. I grew up in Maine. In a very small town. It was 300 people. My high school was the surrounding five towns. My graduating class had 62 people in it. We had a theatre program. In all of my yearbooks, I'm in the drama club every year. I think, one year, I was the president. We didn't have one production. The woman who ran the program was like, 'I'm over it. We're not doing it.'

CZ: Because little did you know it wasn't drama like theatre. It was 'high school drama.'

KA: Oh, I was president of that club, too. I was definitely in that club. So, I knew I wanted something [in that world]. This is going to turn into a long story. Do you want the long story? I mean, the long story is kind of interesting. I think you know it.

CZ: I do know it. But I'm trying to—

KA: You don't think it's interesting?

CZ: No, I'm trying to figure out how long it is.

KA: It's not that long. I can make it short. There was a woman who was like a grandmother figure to me. She was a very proper woman. She would buy me gloves on Easter and a hat. She didn't own a pair of pants. I was her little pet princess. She adored me. She saw an ad in the back of the Bangor Daily News [in Maine] for the Barbizon School of Modeling and Finishing. She [told my parents], 'It's a finishing school. I would love to send Katie to finishing school.' All my mom saw was modeling. She was like, 'No.' And [this woman] Anne was like, 'I'm doing it.' So I went as a freshman in high school to Barbizon Modeling and Finishing School. It was essentially just a modeling school, and I loved it. It was hair, make-up, posing, runway. It was a group of girls I didn't know, and it was super fun. And I also learned some etiquette. Not that I'm using it. I can sit like a lady. But I'm going to go back to sitting like a child.

CZ: Be proud of your legs. I'm just doing it this way because I'm so short. And if I was like this… [puts her legs down]… I'd be like Lily Tomlin [playing Edith Ann] in the big chair. I can't touch the ground. 

KA: Anyhow, I go to the school. This is before 'America's Next Top Model.' At the end, there was a competition, and I won 'Top Model.'

CZ: Yeah, you did. Yeah, girl. Sashay.

KA: Because I got that, I [was allowed] to enter the state Miss Teen Maine pageant. They [said], 'She's got a great look for pageants.' I'd never done a pageant before in my life. I am very much not a pageant girl. As you know. I don't present that way. But at the same time, I was trying to figure out [how to find my way to acting] because I had acting in the back of my head. But after my parents' response to Barbizon, I didn't think they were going to go for it. So I was like, 'What could be close? Maybe journalism? Maybe I'll be an anchor.' I was obsessed with 'Broadcast News' [the 1987 movie starring Holly Hunter]. I [thought], 'Maybe I'll be on the news.' Then I [later] realized I just wanted to be Holly Hunter. [But] I told my parents that's what I was interested in. So, we get this offer to do the pageant, and my dad [said], 'Well, Diane Sawyer was Miss America.' And I was like, 'Great, let's do it.' I was also looking for any way to get out of my small town. So, I enter this pageant. It's down in Portland, four hours away from my house. We are late to the orientation. I know nothing. This is before the internet—where you just Google and find out what's going on.

CZ: And before cell phones.

KA: Before the internet. So I don't know what I'm walking into. I didn't look into things much. I was a teenager and was just like, 'I'll show up,' and I missed the orientation. I walk in. I see these huge trophies, crowns, and sashes. I was like, 'Those are glamorous.' They immediately shuffled me into the first thing. It was a weekend-long thing. I [ended] up winning the whole darn thing, which was a complete surprise.

CZ: Miss Maine.

KA: Miss Maine Teen 1995. Then, they [brought] me backstage, and they [said], 'Alright, we have to start training you for Nationals. Miss Teen USA.' I had no idea. They were like, 'The one on CBS.' I was like, 'Oh shit,' and so I started training for the nationals. I had five months. Training is literally, 'Learn to sit on a couch and talk to someone.' 'Learn to stand in the swimsuit and heels.' I can do all those things very well. I went to the nationals still not [understanding what was involved]. I had a $150 dress off of the Cache sale rack that was three inches too short for me. I show up, and there are girls with trunks of clothes coming in. Designer gowns, coaches, [and] entourages of people. I have me, my whole family with handmade hats that my mom had painted with Miss Maine Teen and she glued a picture [of me] onto the hat.

CZ: Where are those hats today?

KA: I think my mom has them. So, I'm totally green, but [I'm] having a blast. This is where the fever started because it was a two-week-long thing to prepare for a live telecast. It was awesome. It was fifteen-hour rehearsal days on stage, dance numbers, and I fell in love with the stage managers and the producers and the fever of getting ready for a live [production]. I was having the most fun and wasn't nervous because [in my head] I wasn't going [to win] anything. These girls with the $8,000 dresses were clearly the ones meant to do this. I was there for the experience. And the night comes, and they announce the top twenty and they're like, 'Miss Maine.' And I was like, 'Well, dudes, look at that.' Then they announced the top ten. All of a sudden, it gets down to the top three. And I'm in the top three. And it is only then, in that moment, that I freak out. I have a full-blown, near-panic attack on stage. If you look, I have this corseted dress [on] and my chest was just heaving. They asked whatever my final question was. I don't even totally remember because I think I blacked out. I just biffed it. My answer wasn't that bad but it was something about women in music videos. I also grew up with no cable; so I had never seen these music videos.

CZ: You were like, 'What's a music video?'

KA: I wasn't qualified to answer. Anyways, they announced the second runner-up. Miss Idaho. I'm standing there with Miss Kansas, like, 'Am I about to win this whole thing?' I'm dying. And I didn't. I got second place. But I won the swimsuit competition.

CZ: Yeah, you did, girl.

KA: So, I got home from that, and I finally had to have this conversation with my parents: 'I loved what this was. I want to be an actor. I want to move to L.A.' They were like, 'You definitely have something. It's there.'

CZ: And you were, at that time, how old?

KA: I was sixteen. Ora's age. My daughter's age.

CZ: ...which is so crazy because this is Ora's moment of [realizing], 'I want to do this, too.' It's happening right at the same age.

KA: So, [my parents said], 'No, you have to go to school in New England for two years.' I think they thought I would fall in love with the program or a boy or [that maybe I'd] forget that I wanted to move 3,000 miles away. I didn't. I had a calendar, [and I counted down the days]. I finished my sophomore year at [Boston University, where I studied communications]. On the side, I was taking acting classes and doing all that. Then, I moved out [to Los Angeles] when I was 19. And the rest is history.

CZ: Wait, you moved out when you were 19. When did you get your first job? 

KA: I got my first job at 20.

CZ: Literally [within] one year of being here? What was your first job?

KA: I was a guest star on 'Spin City,' and they cut me out.

CZ: That doesn't matter.

KA: But do you know who directed me?

CZ: Who?

KA: Julian [Wass]'s dad, Ted Wass.

CZ: Oh, are you serious?

KA: Isn't that [crazy]? One of our closest friends in the whole world—his dad was my director.

CZ: On your first job?

KA: Uh-huh. And it was Allison Jones who cast me. She's been such a huge supporter ever since. It was amazing. So, I did an episode of 'Spin City.' I did three or four episodes of a show on MTV and then some commercials. Then, I [felt] like, 'I don't think I'm a very good actor. I need to figure this out because I would love to be great.' So, I left L.A. and went to New York and went to an acting conservatory, [which brings] us to Constance's history. [It's] called the American Academy of Dramatic Art. It was a two-year program, and I loved every second of it. Then, the day after I graduated, [my now husband] Mark and I made 'The Puffy Chair,' our Sundance movie, which started the rest of my career. 

CZ: And the rest is history!

FROM PASADENA TO HOLLYWOOD

KA: But the interesting thing about the American Academy of Dramatic Arts is that it has prestigious alumna such as Constance Zimmer. Constance, take the ball. Tell us about your journey.

CZ: I think it's funny that we didn't realize, until getting to know each other [a couple of years in], that we both had gone to the American Academy.

KA: I was in New York. You were in L.A., [in] different schools, but it was the same school.

CZ: I was at the American Academy when it was in Pasadena because I, unlike you, didn't know what the fuck I wanted to do with my life. I was born in Seattle but brought up in California. My mom moved so much. My parents got divorced, left Seattle when I was five, came out to Santa Monica, and was in Santa Monica [for] two years. Then, [I] moved to Fountain Valley for two years, then moved to Newport Beach for [a little while]. Newport Beach is where I was the most. I was there from sixth grade to twelfth grade. I was doing everything but acting. But everything was in front of an audience, I realized later. So, I was training for the Olympics in gymnastics. It was all about the show [and] the choreography. I hated being in a leotard in front of people.

KA: Cut to: Your billboard on Sunset [Blvd] where you're naked holding the televisions in front of your cooch [for 'Unreal']. But yes, a leotard is mortifying.

CZ: It's true. So, I was training for the Olympics in fourth grade, and it was my whole life. Then, I developed breasts. Giant breasts.

KA: Gorgeous breasts.

CZ: And it ruined my gymnastics because I was off-kilter.

KA: Dream crushers. That's what these are. Your dream crushers.

CZ: My dream crushers. Especially because my favorite thing is when I left for the summer and I came back, all my girlfriends at school were like, 'I don't understand. When you went to Germany, you were like this. And when you came back, you were like this.' Yeah, well, puberty.

KA: Jealous much?

CZ: So, then I was in dance. I ran track. Everything I did, people [were] watching. But I didn't like wearing shorts. Back to those F-ing leotards.

KA: You just preferred a TV?

CZ: Yeah, cover that shit up. Then, senior year in high school, all my friends were joining cheerleading. I was like, 'No. I don't want to have to wear dolphin shorts.' Remember dolphin shorts?

KA: Yes, I love dolphin shorts. Cut to: the winner of the swimsuit competition. I'm like, 'Put me in as little clothes as possible' because it's so comfortable.

CZ: That's why it's so funny. I'm so the opposite. I was like, 'I'm not auditioning for cheerleading because I don't want to be in shorts.' I remember one of my friends dragged me out of my house and made me go to the tryouts, and it was to be a song leader. Because I was in dance and I was a gymnast, I was like, 'Okay, fine. I can do that because then I just have to dance.' Well, of course, song leaders do half-time shows and everything else. So, it wasn't until [then] that I was like, 'Oh, once again, I'm playing a character. This isn't really me. This is like a character I'm playing. I'm in front of an audience.' And then that same year, senior year in high school, they were doing 'Grease.' 'Grease' was my favorite movie of all time. I saw it ten times in the theater. Because there was no streaming or cable, you had to see a movie in a movie theater. So I was like, 'I'm a cheerleader. I'm going audition for Patty Simcox.'

KA: Of all the characters you chose Patty Simcox?

CZ: Yeah. Because I didn't know if [acting was even something] I liked yet. It just felt like, 'That's so easy. How do I not do that part?' [But] obviously, I should play Rizzo. Duh.

KA: Wait. Can we do a remake and it's you as Rizzo and me as Sandy? How much fun would that be? Or I can be Frenchy.

CZ: It would be amazing. You could be Frenchy. But I told you, right? She was in 'Shelter,' the last show I did. I wept when I saw her on the Zoom for the table read. I heard her voice, and I was looking at all the squares, and I was like, 'Oh, my God.' I was crying. I was like, 'You don't understand. 'Grease is why I became an actor.'

KA: Grease is the word.

CZ: So going back. Grease. I got the part. I was Patty Simcox, and that was when it all clicked.

KA: There is that moment where you're like, 'Oh.'

CZ: Yeah. And I was like, 'I can wear clothes.'

KA: [You] can wear a poodle skirt.

CZ: I was like, 'I can wear a sweater up to [my neck] and a long skirt and the lace-up shoes?' Then, I [realized], 'Oh. This is what I [love]. It's the people watching me and the feedback and the diving into [someone] else.'

KA: And that exchange of energy. There is something so incredible about theatre. There's an alchemy that happens. You walk on and you feed off of that, and you feed them. I love it.

CZ: But that's why I was at the American Academy. Because I was too late. All the colleges that I had applied to were not good theatre colleges. There was one that was a good theatre college, Arizona State University. But then, when I read that it was more a party school, I [thought], 'Oh, no. I've already partied enough for like 20 people.'

KA: I felt the same way in high school where I was like, 'I'm retiring from partying.'

CZ: Yeah, I was done.

KA: I re-enrolled in my 20s, but by the time I got to college, I was like, 'This is stupid.'

CZ: It's great. We got it out of our system. [We] might have killed some brain cells, but it's fine. But what's funny—that I never knew about you and Les Mis—is that… When I said, 'This is it. This is what I want to do. I want to be an actor.' [My mom and I] went to New York, and I auditioned for NYU and Juilliard. I was like, 'Why do I have to prepare? I'm so good. They're just going take me.'

KA: 'They'll be lucky to have me.'

CZ: When I walked in the room to audition, they were like, 'What are your two monologues you prepared?' I said [in a faux French accent], 'What? I did not. I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't.'

KA: 'What is a monologue?'

CZ: I didn't prepare any monologues. It's because we did it so last minute that my mom was like, 'Let's just go.' But we went and saw 'Les Mis' on Broadway with the original Cosette, [who] was Craig Bierko's girlfriend when we were shooting 'Unreal.' I was like, 'Wait, hold on a second. I saw you on Broadway. I was in New York [and] went to that play.' [At the time, I thought], 'Wow, this is incredible.' I'd never seen anything like that before and [never] knew that that was even possible. But, needless to say, I did not get into NYU or Juilliard.

KA: But you got into the prestigious...

CZ: I got into the American Academy of Dramatic Arts in Pasadena.

THE ASPIRING ACTOR GRIND

KA: But here's what I'll say to any aspiring actor who wants [to pursue an acting career]. Yes, Juilliard and Tisch [are] amazing. If you can get in, great. The American Academy is a school where you're on stage all day, every day, morning until night. It is an opportunity to work on your stuff, to throw yourself into the text. You get out what you put in. The best thing that I got out of that was to make a fool out of myself every single day and walk away and be like, 'Oh, I didn't die for messing up that line.' You work out all of the hardest things. That's what theatre school is. It's an experience. The name-brand thing of Juilliard is wonderful. To come out of that is wonderful, but there are just as many extraordinary actors who do not come out of a designer brand theatre school because they're doing the same thing. That's all you want to do is – get up every day and do it. Mess it up and be better the next day.

CZ: I liked it because it was like a 'Fame' school. Every day you had five classes. It was being completely submerged in it. It just felt like, 'This is it.' Everything fed me. I was excited about everything. The people I was meeting all felt like we were of the same ilk and mindset. Then, I [felt like], 'I'm ready. Let's go.'

KA: What was your first job out of school?

CZ: Do we want to talk about the student films? [I guess they] don't count because you don't get paid for that.

KA: Your first T.V., or film job.

CZ: I think [for] my first job I was in full prosthetics.

KA: Oh, talk about that.

CZ: The Duracell [battery] commercials with the family that had the batteries [on] their backs? The Puttermans. I think that was my first job.

KA: I feel like your hair was almost exactly [the same in that].

CZ: This is almost the same haircut I had on 'Seinfeld.' 'Seinfeld' was my third—[where] you could see my face—job. [For] my first two jobs, I was in full prosthetics. So I did the Duracell family [in] full prosthetics, but that was money like I had never seen before.

KA: Back in the day, commercial money was insane.

CZ: It was insane. And that's what I did the most—commercials. Then, I was Mama Bear in an oatmeal commercial with Goldilocks and the Three Bears.

KA: You were getting typecast.

CZ: I started to get self-conscious. I was like, 'Am I only going work if I'm in prosthetics or a head?' I was thinking, 'Uh oh. This is not good.' You have to be so big to be a suit performer because you are performing under layers and layers of stuff. What it afforded me though was—I was making so much money on commercials. I was the Triscuit girl. I was the Lincoln Cadillac Girl. I was the Rite Aid girl. [I was] working but it was all commercials.

KA: But you never had to do the starving artist [thing where you] wait tables, be a temp [or] telemarketer?

CZ: Oh, I did all that. I was a telemarketer. Were you a telemarketer?

KA: I was a telemarketer. I have such a litany of weird ass jobs. I dressed as 'Rotten Ralph' for Fox Family at the Orange County Fair. I waited tables for a long time. I was an assistant to a private investigator. I was an assistant to a rap producer. I ran casting sessions for a commercial casting director.

CZ: What [period of] time are we talking about?

KA: 18 to 23. That's a short amount of time. I was a nanny. I was a nanny [for] Tony Shalhoub.

CZ: Have you seen Tony Shalhoub?

KA: Yeah. We talk regularly. I saw him at the SAG Awards with his daughter, who is thirty now.

CZ: Oh my God. Does she remember you? How old was she [at the time]?

KA: She was eight to eleven. I wasn't their regular nanny. I was a babysitter for them. I was a family friend.

CZ: That's hilarious. But hilariously cool. No, I did odd jobs. I was definitely not making a living as an actor until I was 25. I started working and making good money as an actor at 25.

KA: I don't think I started making good money as an actor until my 30s. I was just going, guest star to guest star.

CZ: Yeah, I did that too. But how old were you when you were on 'The League?'

KA: 30.

CZ: But playing what? Because, I mean, you looked like you were like 22.

KA: 30. My character had her second kid on the show. I had my kid [in real life while my character] had three kids. I don't even know. I don't remember. I think I was playing—

{They laugh.}

CZ: I love that you're like, 'Wait. How many kids did my character have? How many kids did I have?'

KA: I had one kid starting the show. I was pregnant with my second during the show.

CZ: Were you pregnant on the show?

KA: Not hugely. My boobs started getting very big at the end of whatever season that was. Then, I popped the last week. We had to start hiding it. But it was such amazing timing because it was the one time during the seven seasons of 'The League' [where] we got picked up for two seasons. So, I knew if I timed it right, I could have Molly on our hiatus, and that I had a job waiting for me when I was done.

CZ: That's incredible. That doesn't happen.

KA: It's the scariest thing as an actor to be like, 'Oh, I'm going to take some time off to have a baby,' because the second you take time off—as I've experienced—the town keeps going without you and you are [thought of less].

CZ: Yeah. I find [it] very rude that the town keeps going.

KA: It's beyond rude.

CZ: Geez. It's as if the world keeps spinning.

THE UNIVERSE & MEETING MARK (DUPLASS)

KA: Also, another parallel is… You were [on] 'Seinfeld' and I was [on] 'Curb [Your Enthusiasm']. We've got these iconic great guest-star experiences. I've gotten to be on some great shows.

CZ: But 'Spin City' was your first job!

KA: It was [during the] Charlie Sheen days. [Do] you know who was the loveliest? Heather Locklear. My scene was with Richard Kind.

CZ: Wait. Did you know that they were trying to get Heather Locklear to be on 'Good Morning, Miami?' [That was] the first show I was a regular on. [They wanted her] to come and save our show, but she didn't do it.

KA: She was very sweet. You would have loved her.

CZ: We have a lot of crossover.

KA: This town is not that big.

CZ: We have so many amazingly similar crossovers.

KA: Don't you feel like the universe in so many ways—

CZ: Was waiting for us to get together?

KA: The universe is like, 'I'm going to give you 97 opportunities to meet. One of them is going to work.' I feel the same way with Mark and I. Mark grew up in New Orleans. I grew up in Maine. I was living in L.A. He was living in New York when I met him. However, before we met, ten different times [there were moments when we could have met]. Like, we saw the same weird indie movie in the same tiny art house movie theater outside of Boston [in] Cambridge. [The film] probably had a two-week run. We were in the same place at the same time. I just feel like—

CZ: [You were] destined to meet. 

KA: Fate, destiny, the universe is like, 'There are so many pieces. I'm just going to keep crossing them over, and one of these days, they'll run smack into each other, and they'll realize. Duh.'

CZ: When the time is right.

KA: Yeah. I do wish I met you earlier. The universe was trying to get us together.

CZ: Were you lurking in my bedroom window?

KA: You did a show with my ex-boyfriend.

CZ: Oh, that's right. But I didn't know you at that [point].

KA: And with my other best friend, [Lindsay Sloane]. That was also the universe being like, 'Katie, you're not supposed to date him. You're supposed to be friends with these guys,' which I love.

CZ: But you didn't meet her until after you met me, right?

KA: It was right after 'Black Rock,' [the 2012 film I wrote, directed, and starred in with Lake Bell and Kate Bosworth]. So, I met you first. … Growing up is so interesting. Becoming an adult is so interesting. You think you're going to be friends with your high school friends or your college friends forever. Then you get to your 20s and you find a core group. But you never stop growing and changing and evolving and figuring out who you are. By the time you get to—certainly—where we are now, we have a better sense of who we are as people, what we believe in, what our lifestyles are like, what we would like to do with our time, how we want to spend it. I don't think I could sustain my friendships from my 20s. We don't live similar lives. Everyone's life is at a different pace. I think by the time you get to your 30s, and certainly your 40s, you find people who are living a similarly paced life.

CZ: Wait, you're over 40? {teasing}

KA: I'm just being generous to you. Thanks. I'm 36. I stopped at 36.

CZ: I just turned 40.

KA: But you don't look a day over 39.

“WE SHOULD ALL BE ALLOWED TO AGE”

CZ: I had an interesting conversation [with someone the other day] about vanity and why men look older as they age because they finally have figured out who they are and they're confident for the first time. [Whereas] women, we know who we are, but we're more insecure about how we look when we age.

KA: Oh, I have a different theory. It's interesting. My theory is totally different.

CZ: It is? That's shocking.

KA: I think aging is super weird. And I would love to stop it in my thirties.

CZ: Just stop aging? [Or stop] learning?

KA: Yeah, I've learned a lot.

{They laugh.}

KA: I've learned enough. I'm good. I don't think I want to know anymore. No, no. There's that whole idea of your inner age versus your outer age, right? I'm super fine to learn, evolve, [and] grow with all the things that come with your outer age number that keeps going. However, my inner age feels—it's always felt—like I'm in my 30s. Look, I want to learn all the lessons, and I look to older women as role models, gurus, and mentors. The knowledge they have and the true sense of self that they walk through life with is admirable. But God, those wrinkles. I'm kidding.

CZ: No, you're not. You are so not. That is the plight of the female versus the male aging [experience], right? We can feel this young and this vibrant inside until we're 80 but the outside wears differently than the way it wears on men.

KA: Yet the Kevin Costners and the Richard Geres [aren’t held to the same standards].

CZ: Women are constantly judged as they age [whereas] men are not. Except they do it in reverse. It's all about, like, 'Paul Rudd has not aged in 50 years.'

KA: You know why? I bet that bitch gets Botox. Why is no one talking about that? Men get Botox, too. And probably Paul. I'll ask him. I'll ask his wife.

CZ: There you go. Because his wife will you tell.

KA: That's the thing. No one acknowledges that men get worked on, too. They only criticize the women who do it. But I also think it's so tricky because where men get revered for getting [older]… The adage is, 'They just get sexier and sexier.' [Meanwhile], women are told that their commodity is their looks from the time they were born… 'Oh, you're so cute.' 'Oh my God, she's so pretty.' 'Oh, wow. Your work's going to be cut out for you with this one.' All they're being told is 'Your looks really matter.' And equally, if they're not commented on. Because if you comment on one and don't comment on the other, that says something too. But I think particularly for what we do, and my journey of accidentally falling into pageant life, [it can be tough]. You're told, 'This is what is important and how you present [yourself] is your value.' I don't think boys and men are told that. Look, I think their lives are easier if they are traditionally attractive human beings. However, they're never told that is the most important thing about them; versus when it's ingrained in us. Then, when that starts to go away, we're like, 'Do we have any value at all?' And then we work in a business that says, 'No, you don't.'

CZ: The interesting thing that's been happening over the last couple of years [is that] all of these women [are] showing up to things without makeup. Pamela Anderson just—

KA: Oh, it's so gorgeous.

CZ: She's never looked better. She was hiding behind this facade that this business put on her. When she grew and aged into who she was as a person, and was like, 'I don't want that anymore. I'm not that person anymore. I'm going to show you who I am now,' [it's a beautiful thing]. Alicia Keys did it. It's crazy how it becomes a movement. Women have to go, 'I'm going to show you that I don't need to be judged that way,' yet they're judged. We can't win sometimes.

KA: We can't win. It's the same thing with the Ozempic battle. You're damned if you do. You're damned if you don't. Unless you traditionally fit into a mold, then you're criticized. 'Don't work too hard for it. Don't do the things that could medically help you get there. Because that's cheating, and you can't do that.' Like, you just have to be blessed or not blessed. 

CZ: I feel bad because I don't remember who said this, but I found it so interesting, and I wish I remembered who said it… It was an interview, and they were saying, 'Are you worried about aging in this business?' And she said, 'No, I'm a character actor. I'm allowed to age.' I was like, 'Oh, that's me. I'm a character actor.'

KA: Yeah, but I haven't gotten to be a character. So, if you're not a character actor, you're fucked?

CZ: I don't know. You're not fucked.

KA: I mean, I'm trying.

CZ: You could just choose to not be as pretty. Could you just not be as pretty?

KA: I'm trying. I'm doing everything in my power.

{They laugh.}

CZ: But it was weird because when I heard that statement, I thought, 'Wow, that's so wild.' Because we are all characters. We're all people. We all should be allowed to age.

KA: But it's radical for Pam Anderson to go out without makeup because we only know her fully made up. It is not radical for Meryl Streep to go to the Farmer's Market without makeup because that is how we know her. It's not radical for most character actors to go out without [a full face of make-up] because that is not their commodity. Truly, what Pam is doing… I call her Pam because I'd like to be her friend… But what Pam is doing is truly an act of—in a lot of ways—bravery. Because she knows it's going to be talked about. She knows that is going to be the headline. It's like, 'Pamela Anderson isn't wearing makeup' because that is outside of her box. … Think about any actress who has gained 20 pounds and goes to the grocery store in a normal outfit and her hair up in a messy pony. They're like, 'Oh man. She's really giving up. Look at her. Oh god. What happened?' What happened? It was the holidays, and she had to go to the store.

CZ: I know. Isn't it funny though? I do think [people who] don't live in entertainment towns believe that we look in our daily [lives] the way we look on television.

KA: That's always the comment you get when you meet someone, right? They're like, 'I didn't recognize you without your pushup bra, fake eyelashes, and perfectly coiffed hair.'

CZ: The only time I started getting recognized was after 'House of Cards' because it was a character that had essentially no makeup. It was a 'no-makeup' look, even though it was makeup. But it was the first time I got recognized because it was the closest I looked to what I look like in real life. Because it wasn't lashes and makeup and outfits. [The character] was in jeans and t-shirts. I didn't have the long hair. That threw people off. Everybody [said], 'Oh, you cut your hair.' I was like, 'Well, that's not really my hair.' I found that interesting. People are so confused when you don't look like what you look like on television.

“YOU’RE SO BRAVE”

KA: The movie that I [wrote, directed, and star in]… 'Magic Hour.' It's the rawest I've ever been. It's not even 'no makeup' makeup. It's [literally] no makeup. People are going to be like, 'You're so brave.' It's so strange.

CZ: Let's talk about that fucking word brave.

KA: 'You're so brave… To look like yourself.'

CZ: I have people [who say], 'Thank you so much for not messing with your face.'

KA: It's so brave.

CZ: Because we need people who look real on television, and I'm like, 'Thank you?' 'It's really brave of you to not do what all the other women your age are doing, making themselves look better by surgery and Botox. You just look real.'

KA: You're so brave.

CZ: You're so brave.

KA: You're so brave just showing up with your face.

CZ: With your face and no armor.

KA: How does she do it? Wow. That is a brave woman.

CZ: Because it's not about being brave.

KA: No, it's your freaking face that you were born with.

CZ: Right.

KA: Now, look… Do I think it is fair? And do I wish I could start a movement? Why is everyone around us getting shit done to their faces? Because if they all get shit done to their faces and we're left not doing shit to our faces – where does that leave it? All of a sudden, I am a character actor. Because they all look like Barbie dolls with tight skin, and I'm still pulling faces on this stretchy mug. Because I can.

CZ: That's what you want to do.

KA: Yeah, but I look at so many of my peers. I [think], 'Well, if that is what I'm up against, I'm going to look ten years older than people who are ten years older than me.' I mean, I am just 36.

CZ: We cannot let the way other people look affect the way we see ourselves. This is a problem with social media. It's a problem with photographs that are touched up or not touched up or whatever. It is the constant comparison of what somebody at age 25 is doing to their face. I'm 53, and I haven't done anything. I'm like, 'Ah, but is that going to age well?' That's what I think. I go, 'That's it. You're fucked. You got to do something to your face now for the rest [of your life].'

KA: You just stepped on a very slippery slope.

CZ: Right. So, I don't know. There's something about representation. Everybody talks about representation in communities and cultures and diversity, but [what about] representation as women being okay with aging?

KA: I want to see this face on a screen. I want to see a face that has these bags and wrinkles and crow's feet.

CZ: Jane Fonda says that her biggest regret is getting plastic surgery.

KA: Look, let me say this. Anyone can do whatever they want to their face. It is their face. And whatever makes you sleep at night, whatever makes you feel good, I am not going to judge you. I'm not.

CZ: But you would judge me?

KA: No.

CZ: I would judge you.

KA: You would?

CZ: For sure.

{They laugh.}

KA: Can we all just agree not to do so much? Because your community, the people around you, can't stand next to you and not be compared.

CZ: But here's what I think…This goes back to when I was 18 years old and my mother said to me… Because I had to get plastic surgery on my scar…

KA: And you wanted that new nose. And you wanted a little chiseled jaw. I get it. 

CZ: She said to me, 'I just have to ask you one question before you get this done. If you weren't wanting to be an actress, would you still get the surgery done?' I said, 'No. Because as a person I feel okay. It's my job choice [where] I feel like it's going to be a problem.' So… what I ask you now… here… at this age…

KA: Oh, certainly not. My mom is the most beautiful [woman, who] has aged so gracefully and is gorgeous. Truly, I do believe that we earn every line. It is a map of where we've been and who I want to be. I'm not Kim Kardashian. I pull faces. I'm practically a clown at this point.

CZ: That's what I say [to] everybody. 'That Katie Aselton. She's really a clown.'

KA: No, but I'm an expressive human being. I laugh big. I cry a lot. And everything I do is on my face. This face keeps no secrets.

CZ: Wouldn't you say… Because 'Magic Hour' is such a passion project for you… maybe there was a part of you that…

KA: Oh, I did that on purpose. Because I would love to move in that direction. I would love to move toward the Pam Anderson world.

CZ: It's interesting because, if I wasn't an actor, I would not care. I'd be like, 'This is my face. This is how old I am. I'm great. Let's go. I'll go serve coffee in Europe.'

KA: I say no very boldly. But I do think as a young woman in America, being brought up the way I was brought up…. Like, 'You're so cute. You're so pretty. Oh, look at her.' Again, when you're told that is your best quality…

CZ: Haven't you learned now though, later in life, that it's so much more than that?

KA: Sure, on this level, but I think it does everyone a disservice… Everyone still has the gut feeling of [it].

CZ: Maybe I just wasn't told I was cute or pretty that much.

KA: No, you just get told it now all the time. By me.

CZ: It is true as a mom – a lot of the things that we learn to say to girls are not about their looks, but about their intelligence. 'You're so smart. You're so creative, and you're so artistic.'

KA: 'And interesting. And funny. ' That's all I want to be told. By the way, that's the only compliment [I want]. If I could pick a compliment, I want someone to just be like, 'Katie's really funny. That's all I want to hear.'

CZ: Katie's really funny.

KA: I was fishing. No, but I tell my kids that all the time. 'You're interesting. You're so fun to talk to. And you're really funny.'

CZ: Even when they're not funny?

KA: No, but they're really funny. My kids are actually very funny. I'm proud of that.

CZ: I'm enjoying the experience of aging from how much I'm learning about what it is to be whole. And taking all the things that you have been through – the good, the bad, the ugly, the otherwise – and saying, 'But I got here with all of it.' So, I don't want to believe that's all of a sudden going to stop. The industry has to be better at – not rewarding – but supporting women and their choices of how they would like to be represented.

KA: It's why making 'Magic Hour' was so [fulfilling]. If someone else was making 'Magic Hour,' I would not have been cast in it. I was lucky enough to [create it]. I wrote it for myself, and I cast myself. I directed myself—my favorite actor to work with. But no one else was going to give me that job. So, maybe that's [the] movement that I'm starting? I hear in one ear: 'Create it for yourself. Make it for yourself.' Great but it's also exhausting and hard and our industry is changing. The market is changing. Who knows if anyone will even get to see this movie? Because no one's buying independent films right now… I just wish the industry would catch up. Not everyone has to look like Sydney Sweeney.

CZ: Because not everybody can.

KA: It's not possible. But that doesn't mean that stories can't be told [starring] other people. That's all I'm saying. Just broaden the horizons.

THE FUTURE

KA: Draw me your roadmap from here. You've had this illustrious career. You've even gotten into directing episodic stuff on television. If you could draw your map for yourself from here, [what would it look like]? There's only so much control we have, but if you could imagine what it looks like, what does it look like?

CZ: It used to feel like I was focused on one thing [in life] – 'working in this business and how do I do that?' [Then], moving from being an actor [to] directing [and] realizing it’s almost like starting over because you're in a different career within a career. [But] the realization now [is], 'What is this next chapter as a whole?' I don't think it involves living in L.A. for much longer.

KA: Don't you dare speak those words into existence.

CZ: I'm just being honest. The cost of living in Los Angeles and the isolation that I felt over COVID and during the strikes and how easy it is to become completely isolated – I don't want that for my later life. I want to live in a place where I can go out my door, and I can see hundreds of people and everybody's walking about and intermingling. I need that for later in my life to feed me when I'm not working. Right now, I'm focusing on, 'Where do I want to be when I'm not working?' Before, it was always about, 'Where am I working?' You know when you turn a Ziplock bag inside out? It's still a Ziplock bag but it's holding things differently, and it doesn't have the seal.

KA: That's a metaphor.

CZ: Whatever. It's not a very good one.

{They laugh.}

CZ: But I do know that I would like to stay on top of championing women of a certain age being more in control of who they are as a person and putting that forward. I [also] have all these projects that I'm excited about but I can't talk about, and I do believe that those are all on that same map. I want and believe that the experience we have as women when we get older we need to share. We need to embrace and it needs to be represented on television.

KA: I also think there's a massive audience for that.

CZ: Where are the women over fifty being represented on television [with what they're] going through? [There's] 'And Just Like That,' but don't get me started on that show. In my humble opinion, [it's] not a very good representation of women of a certain age.

KA: Certainly not.

CZ: God bless them. They're fantastic in their fashions.

KA: Their clothes are great, but why are none of them having sex? What's happening?

CZ: So, that is what I am leading with. I would like to tell the stories that [showcase women of a certain age]. I want those characters represented and if I have to buy the rights for a book to do it, if I have to produce it and not be in it... if I direct it and I'm not in it, I don't care. I just want to take what I've learned and my place in this business and try and move it forward. If it's not moved forward for me, I would like it to be moved forward for you. Because I think that is what we need to do. What about you?

KA: COVID and the strikes were wild career-wise. What that did to both of us [was unexpected]. It threw on some wild breaks and in this business, objects in motion stay in motion. So, the second you stop and the world keeps going, all of a sudden there's a lot of pedaling to catch up, right? I have jumped back behind the camera; so I can give myself a role in front of the camera again [with 'Magic Hour']. This is a story that Mark and I wrote together that I've been so passionate about for so long. [We] finally got the right group of people together to make it.

CZ: Because you wrote the outline for it [a while ago].

KA: Right before COVID. We were like, 'This is going to be the perfect COVID movie,' and it never happened. So, five years later, here we are, and it happened, and I'm so proud. I can't wait for it to come out in the world, and I hope that it can find a home and people who love it and believe in it as much as I do. Because I, then, need that to create other opportunities for [myself], too. I'm happy to direct. I love directing, but acting is my passion. Acting is what I want to be doing, and I'm now at a point where my kids are old enough and fully formed, and I can take some bigger risks and go far away and do things. I feel so solid in myself and my marriage that I feel I'm ready. I just need someone to ask.

CZ: Again, we need the opportunities.

KA: I would love to jump on board with you and [tell] these stories of women that aren't being told realistically. Like 'And Just Like That,' but in a fun, amazing, delightful way. Where's 'Golden Girls?' Give me rad, strong, older women. Their friendships are amazing. Their lives are amazing. Their knowledge is everything that we should be looking to and toward. I would love to see those stories. So make some of that, and I'm available.

CZ: You know, those women [in 'Golden Girls'] were in their fifties. They were in their fifties playing 70 and 80 because [the] fifties were not viable enough and are still not viable right now. But being 80 was. There's a jump. The women in their fifties are invisible. It's 40s, and then it's 60s. But are you kidding me about this [period of time]? It's the most you change as a woman. Yet, no one is talking about it in a real, grounded, relatable way.

KA: I think we're ready for it.

CZ: I do, too.

KA: I think you should be so brave, and go make it. And invite me to join you.

CZ: You have to turn 50 first.

KA: No, I can play 50. I haven't done anything to my face. I'm here for you.

CZ: We're going to make it [so] that women can't wait to turn 50 because they're going to come into this club that really is a club of fucking fabulous women.

KA: Look, I hate to keep running over this show back and forth with my car... But 'And Just Like That' should have been that. Because that's what 'Sex in the City' was for our 30s. We looked at these women, and were like, 'Thirties are fucking amazing. Look at these strong, independent, sexed up [women]. ' When they talked about bringing the show back in this iteration, I was like, 'This is amazing because it's what the 50s should be.' And then they're living the most depressing lives ever, and it's so fucking sad. I don't want that in my 50s. So now we have to make the version of aspirational [living that we want to see].