In Conversation: Kelly Zajfen & Kate Gordon

6 am is sacred to Kelly McKee Zajfen and her best friend, Kate Gordon. The women start every day the same way.

With a phone call to one another.

As the co-founder of Alliance of Moms, a non-profit whose mission is to empower pregnant and parenting teens in foster care, Zajfen is a close friend and inspiration to many. She has a slew of girlfriends she can depend on, but Gordon became her grounding call after Zajfen’s beautiful 9-year-old son Georgie unexpectedly passed away in 2022.

“You were very much a part of the mourning and the loss of him,” Zajfen tells Gordon, seated across from her on a white couch inside Zajfen’s Los Angeles home. “What I love most about you as a friend – a best friend – is that I can tell you anything. I can tell you the darkest thoughts that I could possibly have that I would never tell anyone out loud ever.”

“Same,” Gordon says. “I had just had [my son] Cole when Georgie passed, and I wanted to be there every day.”

The women have been leaning heavily on one another as they navigate life and what matters most. For Zajfen, her son’s legacy, her twin daughter Lily, her advocacy as a heart ambassador for the Children’s Hospital of Los Angeles, and her work with the Alliance of Moms and Alliance for Children’s Rights are among her priorities. Meanwhile, Gordon is focused on motherhood and her work as co-founder of The Happy Place alongside JoAnna Garcia Swisher.

We’ll let Zajfen and Gordon take it from here as they discuss loss, life, motherhood, finding joy, and everything in between.

KELLY MCKEE ZAJFEN: What do you most remember about when we first met?

KATE GORDON: I actually don’t remember the first time we met because I saw you a thousand times without talking to you all that much because we had [a] mutual friend. I was definitely at JoAnna [Garcia Swisher]’s, but there were two things that I'm going to peg. One was [when] you invited me to an Alliance of Moms thing at your house, which meant a lot to me because I didn't have kids, and I was so used to being left out of anything having to do with moms and that was the first time that anyone included me in anything like that. I came to your [old] house and I bought the shirt, [which benefits the non-profit’s work]. I was so happy to be there, and I thought, 'This is a special person that would think to include me in this even though I have no children. I want to be a part of these things, too.’ Then, I remember the first time we went out alone. We met for dinner, and we had wine. We had fun and talked about all of our hopes and dreams and our families, and I was like, 'This is a lifer.'

KMZ: What do you think we bonded over?

KG: [It was] probably during the pandemic. You were the only person I saw regularly. You still found a way to bring people together, which is pretty much your superpower – bringing people together. I was seeing you every single week. You were the only human I saw. [It was] you and whoever you brought to dinner.

KMZ: We were really in it together. We also knew where everyone was going and who you [they were] in contact with. We took it very seriously.

KG: And then you left for Hawaii, [where you briefly moved during the pandemic]. We tried to carry [our pandemic pod] on, but you were the glue. It fell apart. When we didn't have the glue, it was done. But that Alliance of Moms thing was the first time [when] I was [thought], 'This is a person who does the work and included me in something that I hadn't gotten [the chance to be a part of].' When you're the one without children, you get excluded from a lot.

KMZ: I love that you felt that, and I wanted to include you always, but also ‘Alliance of Moms’—what a funny name now that I think back [on it]. The reason why it’s Alliance of Moms is because it supports pregnant and parenting foster youth. I want anyone to be able to be a part of something that supports these girls. …. I don’t remember the first time we met [either]. I know it had to have been at Jo’s through our mutual best friend. But I feel like we bonded during the pandemic. We kept in contact when I moved to Kauai for the year. But I think, personally, the bond solidified after pretty sad circumstances. After I lost George. You had your baby, and you still showed up to the house in Laguna [Beach, where I was staying at the time]. You were very much a part of the mourning and the loss of him. So I think that – and you [losing] your dad – put us strongly together. And then you became my 6 am [phone call]. 6 am is every morning. It started off at 5:30 / 6 am. Now we’ve gotten to 6:30 am. But it’s because now I can sleep a little more. But the 6 am [call] is important because you are the first person I start the day talking to, and it can go in [different directions] talking about somebody who upset me or hurt my feelings, or vice versa, to the deepest, craziest conversation – whether that's relationship or kid stuff. Whatever it is. It's sometimes before coffee. Forever 6 am.  

KG: I love those calls, and I love how they take such wild turns.

KMZ: What I love most about you as a friend – a best friend – is that I can tell you anything. I can tell you the darkest thoughts that I could possibly have that I would never tell anyone out loud ever.

KG: Same.

KMZ: But I can tell you, and you're like, 'Yep. I thought that already. I thought that yesterday.’ We can sit there and tell each other anything and everything. You also are ride-or-die loyal as can be. When Georgie died – you told me I should have a burn book.

KG: It’s very important.

KMZ: It's important to have because I didn't know where to put a lot of my anger or sadness or frustration. And people would do the wildest [things]. People would say the craziest things, and I didn't know how to articulate that to anybody, but I knew how to articulate that to you, and it became this [important tool].

KG: It’s important. There’s so much anger and so much rage and you have to have somewhere to put it. …. It’s interesting how people internalize things. I had just had [my son] Cole when Georgie passed, and I wanted to be there every day. To you, it’s like, ‘You still showed up. You still came.’ For me, I wanted to be there so much more than I could have [come].

KMZ: But I remember it as you were there all the time.

KG: I was there, but you were living far [away at that moment], and [Cole] was a baby. I remember you had another friend who had just had a baby, too, and we'd have to go downstairs and pump midday and then come back up. That was a weird time. That cemented us emotionally.

LEANING INTO FRIENDSHIPS

KMZ: Command Central is what I call our girlfriend group.

KG: I feel the same way, though. It's hard. I haven't had the easiest time making other mom friends. You are my constant, everyday person. Having lost Georgie but still coming over and being my mom friend—playing with Cole, listening to my stupid stuff about his sleep sack, or whatever drama of the week—[means the world]. You always show up. You’re always there. …. I hope you give yourself the credit you deserve for what you do every single day for your family and your friends – despite what happened. You are a force in that way. Honestly, sometimes I see you play with Cole, and I'm the one fighting back tears, and you're just playing with my son. I'm like, 'How is she able to do this, and I'm about to cry?' I don't cry because it's not about me, but you know what I mean.

KMZ: I think what’s kept my friendship [in tact with] the people who are close [to me] now in regards to all of this is… I’m careful because I don’t want anyone to fragilize me. But then I call you, and I'm like, 'I do want people to pay attention or to have empathy or support me or hold me in some way up when I can't hold myself.' But also, fragilizing me is taking away [from me] what you see which is – I want to be a good friend.

KG: And you are.

KMZ: And I want to continue to show up, and if I'm the only one falling apart where everyone else is put together, well, that doesn't make me feel any better. So I do want to say, too, that it’s important [to maintain your friendships]. Friendship is all about reciprocity. What I need most in life, especially right now… There’s no way I would have even gotten through the next morning; let alone the day; let alone today without community and my friends. So, being able to show up and nurture and do all the things that I know I was good at—and I hope I continue to be good at—helps me move through it.

KG: I think it’s a testament to the type of person that you are. It’s [who] you are. Even with what you do with [your daughter] Lily. None of that trickles down to her. I’ve never seen anybody else that’s been able to show up like that. She’s the happiest, funniest, coolest [kid]. You show up for her. You’re the best mom. You do all of that with her.

KMZ: Well, she deserves the best childhood under these horrific circumstances. And she said [something beautiful] to me the other day. She held my hand in the car, and she said, 'Mama, I appreciate you. Thank you so much for being a joyful mom.' I was like, 'I'm so glad she recognizes it, too.' It takes effort. I only operate at thirty percent most days.

KG: Well, your thirty percent is my 110. So, you’re doing well. When you say, ‘She deserves it…’ I remember having said postpartum with Cole and being so embarrassed or guilty to say… I felt like he deserved better [than I was able to give him]. Somehow [I worried] it reflected that he wasn’t special or he wasn’t amazing if I said, ‘I have postpartum [depression].' It was such a weird time. It's fresh on my brain because I was just talking about it with somebody today who asked me if I liked being a mom. I was like, 'Yeah, I really love being a mom,' but it was such an odd time. [But Lily] does deserve it, and you do it. Even at thirty percent, you’re exceeding what [anyone else could do]. With postpartum [depression], like, ‘Of course, it has nothing to do with him. He's three days old. No one thinks it has anything to do with him.’ But in my brain, I [worried], ‘If I say this out loud, people are going to think that it’s him or that I don’t love him.’

KMZ: You’re making me remember… When I was at mommy-and-me classes, everyone was talking about breastfeeding, how wonderful it was, and how long they could breastfeed. I was like, 'I had twins, and I'm crying, and I hate every second of it, but I have so much milk, and if I say out loud that I hate every second of this—what are you going to think of me?'

KG: That you hate every second or that you had so much milk?

KMZ: Both. Julian would be like, ‘Are you okay?’ And I’d be like, ‘I’m fine.’ I was not okay. But I did not want to say it.

KG: No, you can’t. Because that’s a thing.

FINDING LIGHT INSIDE THE DARK

KMZ: What’s the best advice [I] ever gave [you]?

KG: I don’t know the best advice you ever gave me, but… You're good at holding space for people but not getting in the muck and the mire of it, which is something that I was not good at. You have guided me and talked me through that. Holding space without taking on so much of everybody else’s [life]. The other thing that I think I’ve learned a lot from [you is]… I have a hard time when I feel like I’m right about something but that the other person can’t see my point of view. You have guided me through that. You can just sit in the fact that you know that what you’re saying is okay and accurate without having to go on a publicity tour about why the other person is wrong. I feel much better about that today. It's just about holding space for yourself and for others; sitting in your skin without taking on [other people’s stuff]. I used to take on so much. If [someone] would call me and say, 'I don't feel well today,' I would be making appointments [and] driving to appointments. It’s like, ‘No. Take a breath. I am sorry that this is happening. I am here if you need me.’ I don't have to be the person that does all of this. I'm a work in progress, but I feel like I’ve taken a lot of guidance from you in that realm.

KMZ: What you’ve taught me is a way of life. I think you're one of the funniest people I've ever met.

KG: I love you for that.

KMZ: It's true, though. What you teach me every day is light inside [the] dark. No matter how dark it is, you help me find the light, and that is so important every day. You're so funny and lighthearted. I know no matter what I feel [you validate my feelings]. Even recently, with the loss of somebody else who has passed, the way that you hear me, you hold the space like no other, and then we're laughing and making jokes five minutes into it.

KG: I try. I think humor is the best. There has to be something funny about everything, or else what is it all for? I told you my dad died on Halloween. It was three in the morning. I turned to my little sister and said, ‘Dad’s last trick.’ I was like, ‘What? Too soon?’ She was like, ‘Yeah.’ But that is how my dad was. My dad would find a way to make a joke out of everything. But he was also the most emotional, intuitive person. I want to feel everything, but I also want to be able to make your day a little better, a little happier. …. Obviously, you talk so much about your community and what your community meant to you, but you've created this incredible community with the Alliance of Moms. Where did that come from? When did you start that? [When] we met, you were already deep into it, so I'm not even sure I know how that all started. I would love to hear more about that.

THE ALLIANCE OF MOMS

KMZ: I started Alliance of Moms with four other women, [Danika Charity, Jules Leyser, Emily Lynch, and Yasmine Delawari Johnson], and it was through Alliance for Children’s Rights, which I am now on the board of. I founded it with these other moms who were all pregnant at the same time. Yasmine, one of the founders, [her husband] and my husband were partners at the firm together. They support the Alliance for Children's Rights. That's how I [learned] about the organization, which provides free legal services for kids in foster care in L.A. It was interesting. We didn’t know this, but Yasmine had brought up—because she, at the time, was on the board—that there was a group of foster girls, youth that were pregnant and/or parenting. They either had a baby or, they were about to have a baby, and they were in foster care.

KG: Wow.

KMZ: We were all in mommy-and-me class and had all these days [together while] learning about these girls. It spoke to me, specifically. I can’t speak for the other women, but my [childhood] growing up was tough because my mom was an addict. It was progressively worse in junior high and then all through high school. I moved out my senior year and had to take care of myself. I was in some bad situations. The reason why I chose right instead of left, and had that happen, was because somebody said to me, 'You're not going back to that house. You can come live with me,' and it wasn't someone I knew well. So I was able to sleep on their couch, and she helped me get a job, and I didn't go back to the house. I always remember one person helping anyone who needs it [makes a difference]. I needed it, and this wonderful person—who wasn't even a mom—knew that I deserved better. So in those moments of me moving to L.A. and taking care of myself, [I was] the first to graduate college in my family, which took me eight years…

KG: But you did it!

KMZ: Yeah. It was important to me to work hard but also to educate myself. I knew what I wanted for my kids when I had them someday. Being in this group and knowing about these girls in Los Angeles in our backyard, [I wanted to do something]. Now I have all of these resources. Now I have access to a doula. I didn’t even know what a doula was until I came to Los Angeles. I thought, ‘These girls deserve one person. Let's hope that we can build a community around them.' We pitched this idea to the Alliance for Children's Rights and said, 'We're going to call ourselves Alliance of Moms, and we'd love to support and raise money and awareness for these girls. We want to provide educational resources, doulas, a Healthy Teen program.' That became the main focus. [It] started as five [women]. We all invited one friend to dinner. We convinced them [of] the need. Those [five women] became ten. It grew and grew to over three hundred or four hundred members. It became a movement for these girls. It's something I'm passionate about because I think a lot about how somebody helped me, and now I get to help somebody else.

KG: Now that you’re on the board of Alliance of Children’s Rights, you still do all of the Alliance of Moms stuff, but you also…

KMZ: Now I get into the thick of things. Alliance of Children's Rights does so much—from policymaking to adoption day to educational resources. It's pretty impressive. All these lawyers and judges are pro bono. I still focus on what I can bring to the table, which is 'Raising Baby,' our big day of educational resources for the girls. I do wellness days for them—[to support their] mental health. I pamper them. There are all kinds of different things I feel they deserve. I do both [Alliance of Children’s Rights and Alliance of Moms], but I get to come to the table, and I get to say, 'There's a bunch of badass moms in Los Angeles who own companies—’

KG: —who can get shit done!

KMZ: Yeah! And they all want to support, and all of them show up.

ACTS OF KINDNESS

KG: Randomly, I was talking about small acts of kindness the other day. Just little ways that [people can make a difference]. That person letting you [stay at their home]—that can alter the course of an entire life. I don't know if it's like this everywhere, but being in Los Angeles, [there can be a certain way of thinking]. I grew up here. I’ve lived here my whole life, besides a brief stint in New York and London, but we live here and you get jaded by [this idea], ‘How are you going to change the world?’ You go through these private schools [who preach], ‘What are you going to do and how? What’s the mark you’re going to leave on the world?’ We get so focused on that instead of small acts of kindness that can change one person’s life. Most people aren’t going to change the world, but you have a good chance of changing a few people’s lives.

KMZ: I do this big [Alliance of Moms] t-shirt campaign every year. It raises funds for the Healthy Teen program. A lot of our foster youth come and wear the shirts with their kids, and it's a meaningful day. It's a day where I can connect with the girls and have open conversations about things. Sometimes, it's intimidating. You don't get to spend a lot of one-on-one time as a volunteer, but I remember having a conversation with one of the girls who didn't know I was a founder. She was telling me stories about how she was trying to go through school, and she wasn't sure if she could get through school. I was so grateful for this moment because I said, 'Oh, you can. Because let me be clear…' I told her my story, and I told her I would go to one class a semester or two classes. I would get one online. I would work, and I would go to one class. It took me a long time, but—

KG: But you did it!

KMZ: She was like, 'Thank you for saying that.' I think I'd been to three junior colleges before I went to a university. But it's funny here, too, because people will be like, ‘What college did you go to?’ I always feel like I have to spit out my resume: ‘I got into USC grad school. I only went for a semester because I got pregnant with the twins….’ 

KG: Kelly! With preschool, it's happening! Everybody’s like, ‘Where are you sending Cole to preschool?' I'll say where I think we want to send him, and they'll [say], 'Oh, have you looked at this one?' I'm a psycho. I've looked at all of them. …. It starts so young, and then it feels like it's never-ending. I think [motherhood] has changed me a lot in terms of my sensitivity level. I was really sensitive. I would take a lot personally because I wasn't feeling grounded in where I was, and I think that changed. [When I was single, people would ask], 'When are you going to meet someone and settle down?' I remember [a family member] called me and [said], 'I have a gift for you. It's being delivered to you today.' [I thought], ‘Ooh, fun! A gift!’ He sent a book: ‘The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough.’ I was like, ‘What is this?’ He [said], ‘It’s not necessarily about who you can tolerate, Kate. It’s also about who can tolerate you.’

KMZ: Your whole family is like this.

KG: [That same family member] once was on the phone with a friend of his, with me on speaker, and said, ‘Do you have anybody nice for Kate?’ His friend said, ‘Kate’s single? She’s so cute.’ He goes, ‘What can I say? She’s got a shitty personality.’ …. But then all of a sudden, it’s like, ‘When are you going to meet someone?’ Then I meet someone, and it's like, 'When are you going to have a baby?’ Needless to say, I’m doing IVF. I’m doing all these things. I’m trying to have a baby. It’s not working for me. And then I got pregnant. I’m on bed rest with Cole, and then it's like, 'Have you thought about having a second?' I don't want a second. 'You'll change your mind.' No. I won't. I'm almost 45 years old. I'm good. But then they'll be like, 'Trust me. You'll change your mind. I see you with more than one.' I'm so glad that's how you see me. It's the same thing as, 'Where do you go to school?' It's never-ending. But now it doesn't bother me because I'm content. I'm happy. I feel like I am where I'm supposed to be. Life feels good in that way.

KMZ: What also makes you special is your ability to hold really dark, heavy shit—a lot of it. I’ve given you a lot to work with. I feel like this last year was shockingly crazy.

KG: I don’t feel like it was that crazy.

KMZ: That’s why you’re my 6 am.

KG: 6 am is the most sacred time of the day. I’ve been bummed because of Cole’s sleep regression. He’s up during that time now.

KMZ: Things are becoming shorter. You’ll be like, ‘I have to go,’ and I’m like, ‘No!’ But you will call me two hours later.

KG: I have to do it before the day starts.

KMZ: Well, then you go into work mode, which brings me to The Happy Place, which is incredible. How and why did you create The Happy Place?

THE HAPPY PLACE

KG: My background [is] in sports management. It started as digital management. [I was] working with athletes, monetizing and managing their social media through digital content, upselling existing sponsors. The internet was like the Wild West back then. If they did a shoe deal with Nike, they didn’t control any of their digital rights. Now it’s all different. Then [I transitioned] to normal, regular management for athletes. I had worked with Nick Swisher since 2009, and I had known [his wife] Jo. Nick was retiring, and I thought, 'I want to work with him.’ I had worked with Baron Davis, but Baron [had known] me since I was a kid. So, it was different than signing somebody who was essentially a stranger. As much as you pretend all your clients are the same, I liked Nick the best. I just did. I cared more. I had become close with Jo. She'd become one of my best friends by then, which is a big part of bringing [you and me] together. [I] had been approached about [Jo] doing a reality show having to do with interior design. That's her background. Not mine. My background is in business. She didn't want to do that, but we thought, ‘Maybe we can create a [design and] décor destination.’ We launched The Happy Place as a heavy décor destination, but we realized that wasn't joyful for us. It felt stressful. Over time, and as life comes at you, the pandemic, her losing her father, her losing her mother, me losing my father—we reframed it as a place that is just real—where we can acknowledge that even in the darkest moments, there is joy. There are things that can still make you smile. It was this giant before and after for us. After these losses, there was still joy. It felt different. There was a before and after, but it was still there. The Happy Place became an extension of that. I do all of the business side of things. Jo does all of the creative. From The Happy Place, we launched a home décor line with HSN called Clover by Jo, which was a crash course in creating products. It was hard, which you know from [your previous children’s clothing line] Little Minis. Also, during the pandemic, [we] started a book club. From the book club, we’ve sold a TV show and four movies, [which led to us launching a production company for our lifestyle platform’s film and television projects].

KMZ: Incredible.

KG: We just build and build. We keep The Happy Place as a place to share what we love. We have our content, entertainment company, and our home décor line. We love it. It's meant to put a smile on people's faces. It's real. I wrote a piece for The Happy Place about the loss of my father. Jo wrote one for hers. We feature women we admire. We feature lipstick that we love. It's a catch-all place that is meant to create happiness. It’s truly a happy place. Jo is an actor, and she has produced things, but this is our first foray into launching a production company, which we're excited about. Because of all of the strikes, we [hadn’t] been able to announce anything. We [were] sitting quietly on our hands while we [waited] to tell everybody what we were doing.

KMZ: It’s so exciting.

KG: It is. You were one of the first women that we featured on it. It was fun. In the beginning, it was mostly Jo's fans, and anything without Jo in it, they weren’t interested. But she's done such a good job at shining a light on others; so now people are getting more used to it and are excited by women who excite her. We were thinking [about] featuring a man, which we've never done before.

KMZ: You haven’t featured Nick Swisher yet?

KG: In the background. In cute little date nights. But there isn’t an emphasis on men. And we rebranded it from when we first started it. We were like, ‘Boss Babes. Super cute.’ We rebranded it as ‘Driven’ because it's much better and more on-brand for the type of women we're featuring. ‘Boss Babes’ is too cutesy. We overthought all the categories on our website when we initially launched. ‘Living Happy.’ What the hell does that mean? People need to know where to find a cocktail recipe. Stop overthinking this. We revamped it, and it's taken off. It's been fun. It's been a labor of love. I hope to keep building it. [On a different note], I’d love to know what your first impression of Los Angeles was.

KMZ: You really want to know?

KG: I do because I feel like it's going to be a good story.

EARLY IMPRESSIONS OF LOS ANGELES

KMZ: I followed a boy here.

KG: It always starts with a boy.

KMZ: But the boy chose a house on Alvarado Street to move into with his friends. I got there and he would say, ‘Don’t walk the street by yourself to the laundry mat.’ I was a little shook. When I finally moved [to town], I was modeling. I moved to do runway. I ended up getting my own apartment. I remember him saying, ‘Don’t move anywhere where there’s a liquor store.’ And, of course, the apartment I found was on the corner of a liquor store. …. The ladies would come out at night, and I could hear the work being done.

KG: The work being done?!

KMZ: I was like, 'You're right. Maybe I shouldn't be in this neighborhood.' I quickly moved out of that neighborhood and I moved into a different apartment where I felt a little safer. It was on Vermont [Avenue], so it was trendy and hip, and cool in Los Feliz. Then, I saw a boy who was a vegan rock star, and I was like, 'Oh, this is what L.A. is for.’

KG: A vegan rock star! The elusive vegan rock star!

KMZ: It was a crazy downtown scene, and I was like, 'Oh, this place is amazing,' compared to where I was growing up [in Colorado]. People did not look like that. I ended up getting into this whole scene of musicians and friends that made L.A. the coolest, most fun place I’d ever seen. And no one could tell me otherwise. It was late nights, dancing at Star Shoes [off Hollywood Boulevard] until four in the morning. My first impression was a little 'woah,' and then it was like, 'This place is awesome.' I still feel that way.

KG: I do, too. I can't imagine myself living anywhere else. I get the allure of other places, but, when push comes to shove, I don't think I could do it.

KMZ: Culturally speaking, the food, the people, everything is interesting and different. And each little section of L.A. is so different from the next. It’s just cool. [That changed for a bit during the pandemic.] When I moved to Kauai for the year during COVID, I [didn’t] care if someone came into my house and lived there. I didn’t want anything to do with where I lived. I was so content. I saw what was happening, and it was bumming me out. When I came back, I was waiting for myself to be like, ‘Why did I do this? I want to move somewhere,’ and I [remember I] said out loud, ‘Did they clean the place? It looks so clean. Look how beautiful this place is,’ because I missed it so much.

KG: I love to travel, but I’m always happy to come home.

KMZ: [Lily, Julian, and I] were driving somewhere recently. We had to go to Torrance for something. I was like, ‘You know, Lil, I was born in Torrance.’ I grew up in Colorado and from first until fourth grade, I was in Newport Beach. But I was like, ‘Guys, I was born in Torrance. I can say officially I was born in L.A.’ It counts.

WHAT’S NEXT

KMZ: What do you feel like you have left?

KG: From a business perspective, we're working on so many amazing projects, and the seeds are planted, but I want to nurture them. I want to see our little saplings grow. In terms of personally, I am someone who believes I’m a constant work in progress. My number one thing right now that I’m focused on is being less reactive and more peaceful. [I’m] somebody that when something happens, [I react]. [I want to] just let the dust settle. ‘Take a breath. Assess a situation and be peaceful where you are.’ I spent a lot of the first year of Cole’s life ‘future chasing.’ You actually told me that’s what it’s called. Like, ‘If I could just get him to sleep through the night;’ ‘If I can just get to this and that.’ I want to enjoy the day-to-day more than I have been enjoying it. I mark life as ‘pre-Cole’ and ‘post-Cole,’ because that's the thing that knocked me on my ass and changed my entire existence in this world. I want to enjoy the moment a little bit more and enjoy the work instead of the outcome. When you're trying to have a baby and you can't, and you're so laser-focused on IVF and getting it done, you become so outcome-oriented. Even a lot of times in business, it’s like, ‘If I connect this and do that, then I’ll get here,’ instead of just enjoying the process and finding [joy] in the process. What about you?

KMZ: Oh gosh. I just need to get through the day. I don’t think I have big lofty goals or plans right now. I think everything I ever knew of what it would be or what I was hoping [for] fell apart. What I've learned is maybe the plan doesn't always go accordingly. My main focus is to find joy. Whatever that looks like. I tell myself that every morning. I wake up to find one joyful thing a day and to make sure Lily is having a joyful day. That's what I envision for myself and my family.

KG: I hope you understand what a feat that is. That you’re able to do that. I sometimes worry that you don’t give yourself enough credit for what you accomplish every single day.

KMZ: I often can't see it. You always give yourself credit when you have something tangible to look at, and I don't have that at the end of the day. I just know I've completed the day, and I'm okay. With the Alliance of Moms and Alliance for Children’s Rights, I don't need credit or to be at the forefront of it but I do need to start learning how to ask for help or for people to support me. I'm terrible at that, as you know. My goal is to do more of that and to build more of a community around those girls.

KG: All of my goals were ‘me, me, me,’ and all of your goals were uplifting other people. I sound like a monster. I'm going to have to sprinkle some of yours into mine.

KMZ: With the tragedy that happened, I do want to find a way to… Well, here I am giving back again… But I do want to talk [about my experience] more. …. I'm so grateful at this moment in time that more people are talking about grief in a way that is less fearful, which is my whole goal when I write on my Instagram or when I talk about it. I don't want people to be scared of it. [I hope] to work on my own [project exploring grief]—whether that’s a book or something else that I can share. When people say, ‘Thank you so much for being vulnerable and speaking about this,’ I think, ‘My gosh, that means you're not hearing this enough.’

KG: One hundred percent.

KMZ: I know that, as a mother losing a child, mother-to-mother that scares everybody, and I know it's the worst of the worst. I've seen the dark place. They're scared that I know what it looks like. But I want to share that with them.

KG: I think that is an incredible goal. I told you. When my cousin passed away, my aunt said when her husband died, she had a thousand people to talk to who had that experience. But when her son died, she had nobody, and I think that is a community that [is needed].

KMZ: It’s complicated, too, because everyone’s [experience differs]. Even child loss is so complicated and so different—so whether someone was sick and you could be there with them when they were sick, or whether it’s a car accident …. or for Georgie who died [unexpectedly]... That happened within [twelve] hours. So it's hard for me because – I get this from you too, which is helpful – but I'll sit there and [think], 'No. Sorry. There's no order here.' Like, mine's worse, which is terrible to think about because—

KG: I know, but you’re not wrong.

KMZ: And it’s just real.

KG: I’ve said this to you. But me losing my dad – who was 73, and it was the worst pain I’ve experienced – it's not the same. That is a cruel right of passage that we should all have to face. It's the natural order. Although painful, it is not the same.

KMZ: But I want to figure out a way – and it might be way too early for me – to find a way to be able to help each other because again, it's what we talked about early on. You were so close with your dad. That's losing your best friend. So that's what you know, and you feel it. So that doesn't take away from what you experienced. I want to find a way to make it more of a community than it is.

KG: I think that would be such an amazing thing. It's just hard because, in those early days, there's so much anger.

KMZ: Of course.

CHANNELLING LOSS

KG: People would leave me messages. I remember driving on the 101, and my friend from high school left me a message about how sorry she was about my dad, and [I was] crying and screaming, 'You didn't even deserve to scrape the gum off of the bottom of his shoe,' and then I'm like, 'What am I doing? This is a very nice message. This is just someone saying they're thinking about me. What's wrong with me?' But that's why I encouraged the Burn Book.

KMZ: It’s helpful.

KG: You have to have a place to channel those things because there are going to be so many things that people say or do. I do understand that people are doing the best they can.

KMZ: I also feel that grief is a lonely place. Even though I have a lot of people in my life, it's still very lonely.

KG: I also think it's lonely because you don't want it to feel any other way. You're like, 'I want it to feel this close forever because that means he was just right there.' So when people say things like—

KMZ: Like, ‘Time heals?’

{She groans.}

KG: Like, I hope not. I hope I feel exactly like this for the rest of my life. This close. I want it to be this close.

KMZ: When a woman said that to me at dinner the other day, I was like, ‘Yeah, I don’t think so. Time is not going to heal this one. Sorry about that.’

KG: And by the way, you don’t want it to heal.

KMZ: You’re right.

KG: I remember saying to you, 'You're never going to get over this. It's never going to be okay,' and then thinking, 'What is wrong with you? Why did you just say that?'

KMZ: But that's why I talk to you! It's because you, literally, [say], 'No, this is the actual worst thing in the entire world.'

KG: It’ll never be okay. But we talked about that—like the Kelly 2.0. You will never be the person that you were before that happened. You can’t be.

KMZ: I was saying today how I feel sad and strange right now. I went to a dark place for the last three days. I lost my stepdad a couple of days ago, and then it made me go even darker into the George [sadness]. I was really sad, and I said, 'It's weird. I feel like I live in a weird alternate reality where I'm walking around now [and don't recognize my surroundings].' I'm in a new house I wasn't [in] before George. I’m in a new school that wasn’t George’s. I have new friends now. People have come into my life, who were not a part of George's. So now I feel like, 'Who am I right now? Where am I?' And it feels weird. 

KG: It is.